Way back in June 2002.....

[rylin]

If your happy with the service then fine... but IMO, this type of service and practice is totally unacceptable.

Since they never gave you a release-date, how can you demand anything?

[JonnyQuest]

Damn, this is a pretty bitter thread. As a very long time user of vB and ex-UBB user, I can't resist...

While I find the development cycle and endless betas and lack of information very frustrating, I think that Jelsoft has the right to make their own mistakes. However, the one thing they have done that I find incredibly frustrating and bordering on unacceptable is that they have almost created vaporware out of vB3. I say almost because yes, it will eventually be released. However, the very concept of vaporware is to announce a piece of software or a new version to scare off competitors and to prevent customers from leaving. By announcing that vB3 would be on its way far more than a year before its ready, Jelsoft surely prevented some fine developers from creating competitive products, and prevented many of us from moving to new software. I can't tell you how many times I have become frustrated and began to look at alternative forum software, only to say to myself 'vB3 will be out soon, its not worth it.'. I give Jelsoft the benefit of the doubt that this is just their mistake, however, if it is outright deception than this is utterly unacceptable.

[heretic]

My main concern is the style set that will be released, that we have not seen.

Releasing a beta is great, but it's only half a beta. How well will the styles be able to be configured? How will they be coded? simple HTML?

if you're not going to release the style until RC1, that defeats the purpose of having a beta. Honestly, Jelsoft cannot test for every bug, so why put out a release on a style that's only been privately tested?

I'm reminded of "Dawn" by Glitchless. or perhaps Duke Nukem Forever?

[Tungsten]

Gee folks... I've got good news for you! As has already been stated, the next release will be RC1 and it will include the new style! So you don't have to worry about any more betas or making a sight-unseen comittment to the new look and feel.

You'd think that this hadn't been discussed already.

[heretic]

Gee folks... I've got good news for you! As has already been stated, the next release will be RC1 and it will include the new style! So you don't have to worry about any more betas or making a sight-unseen comittment to the new look and feel.

You'd think that this hadn't been discussed already.

you completely missed my point. read my post above yours.

if you're not going to release the style until RC1, that defeats the purpose of having a beta. Honestly, Jelsoft cannot test for every bug, so why put out a release on a style that's only been privately tested?

[Tungsten]

you completely missed my point. read my post above yours.

if you're not going to release the style until RC1, that defeats the purpose of having a beta. Honestly, Jelsoft cannot test for every bug, so why put out a release on a style that's only been privately tested?

From what it appears to me, Jelsoft's mentality has been to make all of the structural developments through the Beta cycle and then make the interface tweaks through the Release Candidate cycle.

Now I know that a lot of people are going to cry foul about this and carry on about how there should only be one RC before a product goes gold -- per some mythical standards for releasing software -- but I've seen plenty of Microsoft products go through several RC iterations before finally going "gold" so this doesn't seem too out of line for me.

<shrug>

[Ksilebo]

I wish this thread would get locked already, its just the "whine about RC1" thread" and "whine about vB 3" thread now.

[Steve Machol]

AFAIK (and the Devs can and should correct me if I'm wrong) because of the way the new template system works it was necessary to substantially stablize the code before any serious work could be done on the style. This is why it could not be done earlier than this.

I also want to make one general comment. I appreciate the fact that people have been able to express their criticisms and disagreements in this thread without resorting to personal attacks and insults. IMO it's important to listen to the comments from our customers - whether good or bad. Frankly this is the only way we can continue to grow and improve our services.

[Tungsten]

AFAIK (and the Devs can and should correct me if I'm wrong) because of the way the new template system works it was necessary to substantially stablize the code before any serious work could be done on the style. This is why it could not be done earlier than this.

This is really the only conclusion that makes sense if you stand back and take a look at the overall picture of what is happening with vB3. It's not like you guys have just decided to do a minor version update from 2.x but this is a massive undertaking.

Considering that programming is largely an architectural artform, logic alone dictates that you build the skeleton first and then apply the skin. Right?

I think you guys are doing things exactly the way they should be done if you want to release a final product that hopefully won't require too many bugfixes down the road.

[Tolitz]

or perhaps Duke Nukem Forever?

Really now ... comparing vB3 to DNF is as bad as exaggeration gets ... your impatience is bordering on the ridiculous side, and it isn't helping your argument at all... stop grasping at straws...

[heretic]

quite the opposite.

I'm not trying to argue anything. I'm trying to get an answer, as are most people here.

You've stated your point, and I have stated mine.

And for the future, updates on the status would help. My license is running out soon. Some of us have pumped out a few hundred for our forums, we are at least entitled to an estimated release date. Am I right to assume it's christmas?

[TripleH]

That is what a Staff member had posted... So cross your fingers

[iDavid]

Now I know that a lot of people are going to cry foul about this and carry on about how there should only be one RC before a product goes gold -- per some mythical standards for releasing software -- but I've seen plenty of Microsoft products go through several RC iterations before finally going "gold" so this doesn't seem too out of line for me.

Just a quick note -- I (and I would imagine most who disagree with the version progression of vB3) don't think that it's that people demand a single RC; in practice, that's often quite difficult to achieve.

However, the issue is more likely with the fact that substantial code is being released and tested externally for the first time at the RC stage. Typically the goal is for all code at the RC level to have had substantial testing.

(And yes, I did read Steve's post, but I'm just following up on this particular discussion. Don't jump on me!)

[Millward]

Why do people find the need to complain about having to wait for a new version? Even one of the staff said that because of the way the new template system works they had to stabilise the code. What would be the point in creating the new style if the template system code had to be changed in the next release? If Jelsoft had released the style earlier it would have probably delayed the release of vB3 further.

And they never gave an OFFICIAL release date, if they had and they were unable to meet that deadline you still would have complained. Also, I think it should be up to Jelsoft how they use version formats not you. Remember, good things come to people who WAIT! They even extended everyone's licenses to allow them to download betas of vB3. Some people are just damn ungratefull.

Maybe they are a little behind but at least they're trying their best. I'm not bothered that we have to wait a bit longer. Maybe they got behind schedule because of changes in the dev team you never know. I think everyone should chill out and I hope someone locks this topic soon.

[Freddie Bingham]

We will give you an update shortly as to the status of RC1.