Big Board Thinking about switching from IP.Board

[kyrgyz]

1. If there has been a huge overrun of ex-vBulletin owners buying IPB that has not been dying down....

Yep, big IF here. Maybe the IPB3 resale market is going up because of this:

I can give you another reason: the IPB community is largely immature, impatient, and unwilling to do the work for getting a successful forum off the ground using IP.Board. Therefore, a lot of them end up giving up and selling their license and moving on to the next thing that holds their attention for 5 minutes.

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I'm incredibly impressed by how quick their support is and how willing they are to try to make customer suggestions work. I'm not saying this to bash IB. I have the emails in my mailbox - even on weekends - to prove it. It's very impressive.

Like this one?

The smiley button align problem with IE8 (not aligning center) like it should do. Was reported by me ages ago on IPB. I even uploaded screen-shots to prove my case. Many months later (over 6 months now). They have not fixed it still. There are cross-browser incompatibilty issues with IPB 3.
They might be minor, but they are things that should have been fixed well before now after being reported. I’ve seen a few Gallery versions get released since, along with forum versions. And still they’ve not fixed it!

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3. The reason there is no second hand market for vBulletin 3 licenses is because vBulletin decided to make the resale value of vBulletion 3 almost worthless..

For fairness, it's better to compare second hand markets of IPB3 with vB4, not vB3.

P.S. MRGTB, sorry for using your blog posts here. Just wanted to level this discussion and not turn it into yet another IPB fanfare event on the vBulletin forum.

[BirdOPrey5]

To the OP = I'm curious to know too why you'd want to change. Having 1 million posts is a great achievement and certainly a big board by any standard.

I fear my comment came out bad... I am by no means disrespecting anyone with a million-post board, I have yet to join those ranks myself. I was trying to compliment vB in that million-post boards seem common place among the brand that he certainly won't have an issue with one of that size... I know bigboards.com uses 500K posts as their minimum but today I would personally say 2 million is a better mark of a 'big board' but of course it depends on how much traffic more than how many posts... if it takes 10 years to reach a million posts I doubt anyone would call it a 'big board.'

[slinky]

Like this one?

I can only report personal situations and what I've seen. Once I've had something fall through the cracks there and it was remedied relatively quickly when I brought it up later. They aren't perfect either but IPB and IB are not comparable. As someone else posted, look at the roadmap that is clearly laid out there and the user comments they solicit. It's the exact opposite of the cloak (and dagger) operation that is here that occurs with no transparency and minimal, if any disclosure.

For fairness, it's better to compare second hand markets of IPB3 with vB4, not vB3.

I'm not sure that is a fair comparison because many only own a vB3 license and, the argument of many, is that vB 3 is far superior to vB 4 as a stable, full featured forum. You can choose from hundreds of gorgeous themes to buy for vB 3. I'm not sure there are even two dozen vB 4.0.5 themes for sale and, of those that are, only a few are good (I saw one site with professional looking themes.)

I also don't know how many users are interested in buying vB 4 licenses outright these days. Perhaps that's the reason for a $50 maintenance pack for all the vb 3 license sitting around or being used without an incentive to upgrade. I've got a bunch of vB 3 licenses that aren't being used and they will never be upgraded. I've seen people selling vB 3 licenses on the cheap as a result and users who want to start forums go for those, costs them a fraction of what it costs new and can decide later whether to keep vb and pay the big price for a new version, wait until vb 5.0 (aka "the stable one") or move to IPB.

of course it depends on how much traffic more than how many posts... if it takes 10 years to reach a million posts I doubt anyone would call it a 'big board.'

I'd call it a big board. One million posts is a boatload of content. Traffic is a related but different metric.

[kyrgyz]

They aren't perfect either.

Finally.

I'm not sure that is a fair comparison because many only own a vB3 license and, the argument of many, is that vB 3 is far superior to vB 4 as a stable, full featured forum.

vB4 is a stable, full featured forum. It is basically the same vB3. Customers are complaining mostly about vBCMS if I am not mistaken.

You can choose from hundreds of gorgeous themes to buy for vB 3. I'm not sure there are even two dozen vB 4.0.5 themes for sale and, of those that are, only a few are good (I saw one site with professional looking themes.)

More professionally done vB3 skins are being updated to vB4, even IPB3 skins are being converted to vB4. The delay was largely caused by the change in the way styling done in vB4, IMHO. There was a learning curve for skin developers I guess. Right now it's just the matter of time.

[slinky]

Finally.

LOL... I think they are way ahead of the curve now but they too have their drawbacks... I'm fair!!!

vB4 is a stable, full featured forum. It is basically the same vB3. Customers are complaining mostly about vBCMS if I am not mistaken.

No... vB4 is an almost stable full featured forum. Customers are still complaining about some of the standard features that, my guess, will finally be fixed in 4.0.6 which Dave was kind enough to share with us. Facebook issues are still problems and Dave has solved one and others remain. While I may choose to upgrade (due to integrations on our site that just need to be done with one or the other), there will still need to be several manual patches that I have to do, only because I have had the benefit of wasting time in these forums reading the patches that are still suggested as of this late date. And then there are questions about those important items that are "stable" but not quite working too well, e.g. search. vB 3 is still far ahead of the game and I wouldn't switch if it wasn't for the development and timing.

More professionally done vB3 skins are being updated to vB4, even IPB3 skins are being converted to vB4. The delay was largely caused by the change in the way styling done in vB4, IMHO. There was a learning curve for skin developers I guess. Right now it's just the matter of time.

Not quite, unfortunately. They are wading in the pool but nobody is converting all of their templates. One designer did, got out 4.0.3 and weeks later still hasn't gotten out 4.0.4 or 5, no doubt because of the effort needed to keep making these changes. The delay is not just learning curve - it is (a) the inane and inconsistent style var system that is needlessly irritating and time consuming and (b) the complete fault of vBulletin for not making an official announcement as to the direction of the stylvar and templating system in 4.1. I cannot blame any designer for not wanting to convert his/her styles to 4.0.5 only to find out that 4.1 will require him to do it all over again. This is a recurring problem here, some IB guys are no doubt sympathetic but there is no one in authority to break down the wall.

[Alfa1]

I wouldn't call 2.100 bugs, including 1.600 confirmed bugs) anywhere near stable. And customers are not just complaining about the CMS. The complaints have been discussed to death.

IPB has its weak points as well. It has very little coding community (though unlike vbulletin they do list/advertise commercial addons)
They supply an array of supported addons, that makes part of vb.org its addons superfluous. And to be honest many of vb.org its addons are very buggy. Still like vb's addon community a lot though.

[kyrgyz]

I wouldn't call 2.100 bugs, including 1.600 confirmed bugs) anywhere near stable. And customers are not just complaining about the CMS. The complaints have been discussed to death.

Is IPB code being rewritten at the moment? As slinky said they are not comparable, even in term of the bug count. To me 2,100 bugs mean little if there are no or a very few showstoppers while code is being refactored. Antony Parson explained it really well:

I can't imagine them worrying too much about bugs that aren't show stoppers or critical, considering the forum and blog code is currently being rewritten. Lets be honest... they're only going to fix the important stuff and get the rewrite out the door as soon as they can, then focus all bug fixes onto the new code. Debugging code that is getting tossed out the door is a futile mission, and we all know that IMHO. If it's CMS, then I would see them fixing it, considering it uses the new code which will carry over through 4.x & 5.x.

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IPB has its weak points as well. It has very little coding community (though unlike vbulletin they do list/advertise commercial addons)
They supply an array of supported addons, that makes part of vb.org its addons superfluous. And to be honest many of vb.org its addons are very buggy. Still like vb's addon community a lot though.

vB.org is maybe more than necessary, but it's planet vBulletin with many and many citizens, with freedom to choose from a wide variety of mods, hacks, styles, etc. Even this very forum is a testament to THE freedom of speech. Try to pull it off at IPS forum. Even their presale forum is moderated. Whatever reason IPS has for it, they are control freaks. Sorry for my rant.

I often read IPB fans saying they have all needed mods. I say good luck. I would hate to walk in WalMart and find one kind of bread, one flavor of yogurt and one color towel. They do suffice, but I want variety. Let me be the judge.

I love browsing vB.org and finding mods that I didn't even think of before and scratch my head and say wow it is really a cool idea.

[slinky]

Is IPB code being rewritten at the moment? As slinky said they are not comparable, even in term of the bug count. To me 2,100 bug means little if there are no or a very few showstoppers while code is being refactored. Antony Parson explained it really well: "they're only going to fix the important stuff and get the rewrite out the door as soon as they can, then focus all bug fixes onto the new code."

I have no idea whether I'll have show stoppers. I do know that I will have problems over the course of time and will have to pay coders hundreds of dollars each forum to upgrade each time IB decides to perform yet another necessary rewrite - of course, without warning us in advance of what they are doing. But vB 4 has to be compared to IPB 3 for what it is and the rewriting of vB 4 is no excuse.

Let's get to the unfortunate facts. I'm guessing that IB knows they have many forum owners in a tight spot - moving your board to another software after up to 9 years is technically difficult. As a result, the ability to abuse the customer is very high. How else can you explain how a company would even think of forcing its own customers to buy a product upgrade by (a) refusing to allow them to buy the updates that were understood as a right when you bought vB 3, and (b) simply not fulfill its promise that it WAS going to be ready by January, without allowing those customers to see the vB 4 product. What worries me is that we'll go practically from vB 4.1 or 4.2 directly to the vB 5 presale because their revenue window is March - October 2011, which is what they seem to have promised shareholders. If that happens, guess who will pay for it... again...

vB.org is maybe more than necessary, but it's planet vBulletin with many and many citizens, with freedom to choose from a wide variety of mods, hacks, styles, etc. Even this very forum is a testament to THE freedom of speech. Try to pull it off at IPS forum. Even their presale forum is moderated. Whatever reason IPS has for it, they are control freaks. Sorry for my rant.

No apology necessary. Ranting understood. I wonder whether IB lets the discussion run wild because they have no other choice. If they censored the comments (which cannot be seen by non-customers anyways), the barrage of anger all over the net would be tenfold. There are much fewer hacks available for vB4 than were in the past. I think a reasonable amount of users realize that there is little benefit in giving away effort here in return for contempt, like getting a $50 upgrade pack to vB 3. The mods that were converted seem more out of necessity than invention.

What I have noticed about IPB is that there isn't much anger in the forums because there isn't a reason to be angry. They are very communicative with the customer like sharing their plans. Their bug tracker is so much more organized than this one it's laughable. Honestly, I was shocked and only discovered this recently while deciding to use IPB on all our new boards, unfortunately out of necessity. CMS is not ready for prime time and I'm not shelling out $285 for this. In some ways IPB is too restricted but they have mentioned to me they'd be willing to talk about opening up parts of the software or giving me ideas how to do so. vB has some better ideas but it seems like it will be years until they are implemented. So here's what I wonder... am I better off using the hacks they have there (and some are pretty darn good, especially the paid ones) and use the money I save every update to buy other mods? There are choices to be made and these are just the facts.

[Abomination]

Hi guys, i'm looking to transfer my community from IP.Board and IP.Content to the vBulletin suite.

I am also quite interested in why you are interested in converting to vb. Any specific features of interest?

[Alfa1]

Is IPB code being rewritten at the moment?

No, they are already finished with that. They didn't need 3 years to do it either. (I know IB said the vb4 rewrite was going to take 2 years, but that seems unrealistic now that we are already 1.5 years into it) And on top of that rewrite they release a mass of useful addons. That is a huge performance which unfortunately we do not see IB doing.

I often read IPB fans saying they have all needed mods. I say good luck. I would hate to walk in WalMart and find one kind of bread, one flavor of yogurt and one color towel. They do suffice, but I want variety. Let me be the judge.

I love browsing vB.org and finding mods that I didn't even think of before and scratch my head and say wow it is really a cool idea.

I completely agree with you on that.

[cfnet]

I was going to switch to try to stay above the forum curve and be able to offer more to my members. It's clear by this very thread is symbolic of what vBulletin has apparently become. I'm by no means a fanboy of any particular forum software. I try to simply give my community the best available product on the market while being able to offer features other communities don't have or are lacking. Whether it be from vBulletin, phpBB, SMF, IPB, Wordpress, or any of the other available packages out there, I simply want the best, and won't settle for less. But after doing further research, and reading threads I have permissions to read I've come to the following conclusion: vBulletin 4 simply isn't for me. Maybe it works for some people, and thats great for them, but sorry for me it just won't be acceptable.

Members bickering back and forth on the stability of a product, lack of staff to answer any questions or concerns, no clue of what the future of vBulletin is going to be, no one can tell me whats going to be in 4.1, and yet this is suppose to be cutting edge stuff here? Recent changes to support that basically require people to upgrade to latest releases to receive support, when vB 4.0.x is still bug ridden, and upgrades haven't been going smooth from version to version, (just what I've been told) yet I'll be expected to update as soon as it's released to get support and bug fixes? What about how the development team works here, and the number of bugs that seem to reappear after being fixed? Sorry but no way thats happening, when the current product is already unstable, and it's been demonstrated to be acceptable to release sub-par quality here lately, I wouldn't think about touching 4.1 until at least 4.1.4

While the mod community at IPB maybe lacking, I generally find the modifications actually useful, rather than the droves of uselessness at vBulletin.org. IPB 3 is currently whats out, vBulletin 4 is currently whats out, comparing vB3 to IPB3 isn't practical any way you look at it. I can't get support for vB 3 any longer, I can't buy a 3.x license, it's a moot point. vB 4 is the only concern to me as it's current, supported (debatable apparently) and gets bug fixes.

There seems to be a lot of questions posed to the devs about vBulletin with little to no answers to them except the ones they want to cherry pick because they're easy. You guys may not be able to spot a ship taking on water, but I've been on the ocean long enough to see a sinking ship when it's going down, and trust me I dont see holes being patched from where I sit currently.

I suppose I should look toward wordpress, since it's the biggest competitor to vBulletin, and perhaps the forum software suite of the future.

[slinky]

No, they are already finished with that. They didn't need 3 years to do it either. (I know IB said the vb4 rewrite was going to take 2 years, but that seems unrealistic now that we are already 1.5 years into it) And on top of that rewrite they release a mass of useful addons. That is a huge performance which unfortunately we do not see IB doing.

http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?293772-vBulletin-4-Series-Development-Update&highlight=vbulletin+4

vBulletin 4 has been in development for longer than 2 years. Apparently when James, Kier and many of the original coders were no longer involved, the project took a turn a marked turn for the worse. Evidently the rewrite of vBulletin 4 will take longer than the 2 years and certainly much longer than the original estimated date of delivery - Q2 of 2009, which is more than a year ago. I'm not an IPB lover - I'm new with the product. But what are we supposed to say when we see working Facebook and Twitter integration, a free iPhone client, mobile theme and then the latest bomb of what is coming this year. The word here is "just get rid of the bugs by year end" and then there is still search and a whole new style system to deal with. The facts are what they are and unfortunately mods are cool but small consolation.

[smirkley]

If you will bear with me,...

My first gut reaction was this was a baited thread. A seemingly sincere question with innocent suggestions.

I think I'll stick it out on IP.Board guys. Whenever I asked presale questions there official staff responded to at least one of them always, and they don't seem to be such a disaster like vBulletin is right now apparently.

I dont think i can take the risk of switching to less features, and no plans on future development. thanks for your time though members..

But the within a day later, a decision is made by a truly big board "owner" based solely on the member replies, many which were helpful and some that were pointed. And from someone who (by their own suggestion) has been in the biz awhile, likely informed to the different scripts available, and knowledgable enough to ask such simplistic questions.

It's clear by this very thread is symbolic of what vBulletin has apparently become. I'm by no means a fanboy of any particular forum software.

....

Members bickering back and forth on the stability of a product, lack of staff to answer any questions or concerns, no clue of what the future of vBulletin is going to be, no one can tell me whats going to be in 4.1, and yet this is suppose to be cutting edge stuff here? Recent changes to support that basically require people to upgrade to latest releases to receive support, when vB 4.0.x is still bug ridden, and upgrades haven't been going smooth from version to version, (just what I've been told) yet I'll be expected to update as soon as it's released to get support and bug fixes? What about how the development team works here, and the number of bugs that seem to reappear after being fixed? Sorry but no way thats happening, when the current product is already unstable, and it's been demonstrated to be acceptable to release sub-par quality here lately, I wouldn't think about touching 4.1 until at least 4.1.4

....

I suppose I should look toward wordpress, since it's the biggest competitor to vBulletin, and perhaps the forum software suite of the future.

I suppose you should look to wordpress, since it is obvious on the surface that you arent here to do anything other than sell"out" vb. If you actually have read the many threads, and I dont doubt you have, you would see clearly that the statements made in the last paragraph quoted are specific in style and nature. Such as the following by a similar minded member.....

I have bought a heavily discounted pair of shoes last year for $15.
After few days of use it flew to the garbage bin.

I have bought vB4 on the presale last year on a heavily discounted price...

.... but yet you never threw out the password to your member account here.



Anyone else smell agenda too in this thread?

It has a very distinct and repulsive odor.

There are certain member elements here that vB honorable doesnt just hide, that finds way too much time to be spent diminishing the vB product line, instead of promoting their choice on their own vendor sites, or maybe even managing their own forums.



just my 2 cents.
(sorry if I am wrong, but atm I dont think I am)

[beishe8]

Such as the following by a similar minded member.....
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Anyone else smell agenda too in this thread?

It has a very distinct and repulsive odor.

Hmmm... seems you have a good nose...but in the wrong place...

"just my 2 cents.
(sorry if I am wrong, but atm I dont think I am)"

[smirkley]

**snickers**

**smirks**

If thats the best you can do....