Tabless Template and vB 3.8

[insidedesign]

Can we expect vBulletin to be using a tableless template system with the release of vB 3.8?

[TomJames]

No. I believe that will be coming with VB4

[insidedesign]

No. I believe that will be coming with VB4

Wow, that is very unfortunate.

[KevinL]

The only site that I have seen use this is http://www.ayyas.com/

And it's probably one of the best sites I have ever seen

[insidedesign]

The only site that I have seen use this is http://www.ayyas.com/

And it's probably one of the best sites I have ever seen

Wow, beautiful website. What language is this? I would like to use translate.google.com, but you need to know the language first.

Also, maybe we could encourage the designer to work with the vB team in order to release a CSS template?

[Zachery]

Tables are good, not using tables whent ables are called for is just bad pratice.

[insidedesign]

Tables are good, not using tables whent ables are called for is just bad pratice.

Tables are not intended for page layout and design purposes, but for laying out tabular data. This is what I am referring to when I speak of a tableless vb skin design.

Anything else is simply outdated and poor.

[Zachery]

Tables are not intended for page layout and design purposes, but for laying out tabular data. This is what I am referring to when I speak of a tableless vb skin design.

Anything else is simply outdated and poor.

But then it wouldn't be a tableless design, it'd be well structured and semantic HTML.

[insidedesign]

But then it wouldn't be a tableless design, it'd be well structured and semantic HTML.

I think there is some confusion about what tabular data is. When I refer to tabular data, I am referring to things such as a calendar or tables of numbers. In the case of vbulletin, not threads, not posts, and anything else that has to do with layout.

I understand that vBulletin is nearly 100% database driven, but that does not mean it should all be laid out in a tables.

That was the 90s.

This is now. Websites are now driven by table less design. There are MANY reason why this is better, but I am sure you already understand this.

To be honest, I have no idea why a member of the vB support staff is so resistant to a CSS based layout. Especially when I consider vBulletin to be one of the best, and longest running, scripts available!

[Zachery]

I think you misunderstand me. I don't want a tableless design for the sake of not using tables. I want a well writen, well coded, semantic html markup. If this is done it should not have tables for design.

[insidedesign]

I think you misunderstand me. I don't want a tableless design for the sake of not using tables. I want a well writen, well coded, semantic html markup. If this is done it should not have tables for design.

Great, we agree 100% then

[jmurrayhead]

Elements such as menu items, (as in the navbar), should not be using tables. This same effect can be done with <div> tags and CSS or <ul> tags and CSS.

The showthread.php uses tables to display posts. This also can be achieved using <div> tags, as well as others. I see no real good reason to use tables for the sake of design purposes.

Regardless, people argue back and forth on this subject (CSS vs Table layouts) and we're really getting nowhere until all browsers support CSS, xhtml, etc the same way.

[insidedesign]

until all browsers support CSS, xhtml, etc the same way.

Unfortunately, this will never happen.

[jmurrayhead]

Unfortunately, this will never happen.

Most likely true...but they are getting better at following the standards set by W3C. I don't think they will all ever have the same support, but we have already seen dramatic improvements with IE7...and from what I've seen with IE8, MS has done even more. I've only seen a few minor issues with FireFox so far.

Anyway...there are things that can be done to vBulletin that are supported very well across most browsers so that we can move away from the old school table layouts and more towards the CSS-driven layouts.

[Zachery]

Div speghetti is just as bad as nested tables at the end of the day.