Refund

[wacodep]

I would have said its marketed as turnkey. Show me where its marketed purely as a toolkit.

I have CLEARLY explained the difference between a "turnkey solution" and a toolkit to you already (just above), and even provided you with not one but TWO very simple examples of it.

I can't help it if you can not or will not comprehend it.

[ChopSuey]

Wow comparing vBulletin with alot of different things here.
Been going on since they said they were going to make vB4

[wacodep]

I would have said its marketed as turnkey. Show me where its marketed purely as a toolkit.

Here's another really simple explanation:

Going to a restaurant, ordering dinner, and eating it is a TURNKEY solution.

Going to the grocery store to buy the ingredients, then having to use the tools (pots, pans, utensils) and the knowledge (your knowledge of how to measure, stir, and heat) to make that same meal BEFORE being able to sit down and eat it is NOT a turnkey solution.

If you wanted a turnkey vBulletin solution, you can subscribe with a vBulletin host who installs, configures, and maintains the software, the server, and the hardware, and all you do is run it.

If you want a toolkit, you buy vBulletin and install, configure, and maintain it yourself on a web host that you also have to configure and maintain.

Does this help?

[ChopSuey]

wacodep your posts make me laugh.

[Floris]

Wow, 5 pages long.

Someone lock this thread because the answer has been given back in 1912. ..

[the geek]

Here's another really simple explanation:

Going to a restaurant, ordering dinner, and eating it is a TURNKEY solution.

Going to the grocery store to buy the ingredients, then having to use the tools (pots, pans, utensils) and the knowledge (your knowledge of how to measure, stir, and heat) to make that same meal BEFORE being able to sit down and eat it is NOT a turnkey solution.

Does this help?

Uh, no. Simply because that is your definition of turnkey. The point is purely subjective. vB is not maketed purely a toolkit and no matter how much you kick and scream to prove otherwise, the fact won't change.

[ChopSuey]

Wow, 5 pages long.

Someone lock this thread because the answer has been given back in 1912. ..

vBulletin wasn't even available back them.
None of us were even born.

[the geek]

vBulletin wasn't even available back them.
None of us were even born.

You're right. They didn't even have instant coffee back then

[wacodep]

Uh, no.

Honestly, this does NOT surprise me.

Simply because that is your definition of turnkey.

It's not MY definition; it's THE definition. Go look it up and be an informed poster.

The point is purely subjective. vB is not maketed purely a toolkit and no matter how much you kick and scream to prove otherwise, the fact won't change.

It's not subjective. Purchasing a compressed package of software files that you must know how to install and configure is NOT a turnkey solution. Choosing to NOT have to worry about doing this *is* the entire purpose of a turnkey solution.

Then again, what would I know - I'm just the Corporate Director of Information Technology with two degrees in IT, including a BBA in Management of Information Technology, so what the heck would I know about turnkey software solutions?

[the geek]

omg. I didn't know I was talking to royalty.

So you got your degree by an awesome thesis that details every piece of software in the world is a toolkit because it cannot be turnkey if you had to do something like install it.

But what would I know? Im just a geek.

[RobParker]

If Ford or GM announced that they are going to start selling a new model in September, do you rush out in August and plunk down a bunch of cash without knowing anything about the car?

I don't know about you, but I spend time and effort checking things out BEFORE buying them.

Nobody FORCES anybody to buy ANYTHING.
Nobody FORCED anybody to buy vBulletin.
Nobody FORCED anybody to upgrade their existing 3.8 forums to 4.x.
People CHOOSE.

I can't help if if there are people who CHOOSE to do things BEFORE buying something.

The point is that they released very little information about the product beforehand and had a very limited sales offer and people had to make the choice on little evidence. The most compelling evidence for me was that VB is a great piece of software and a good company. I'd expect bugs but overall I knew (thought?) that we'd end up with a product worth it. Someone else said it but it's a good point so I'll repeat it, a lot of the preorder sales were done on previous goodwill towards VB mainly because so little information was available on the CMS befoehand. They've cashed in a lot of that goodwill with the preorder sales and so far it's not looking too good.

I read the information that was available, I asked questions, and I made an INFORMED decision. That decision including KNOWING that things would not be 100% PERFECT on Day 1 of the Gold release.

The problem with some people is that they did NOT read, did NOT evaluate, and simply threw money at something BEFORE becoming an informed consumer, but now want to COMPLAIN because they didn't spend the time to properly evaluate the risks and rewards of buying the latest and greatest model. Instead, they simply bought a wish list, but are now having second thoughts because things are turning out to be different from what they hoped for. Funny ... sounds a lot like an election that happened not long ago here in the US.

How did you make an informed decision on the CMS as there was basically no information? You said this earlier but didn't bother to clarify when I asked. Purchasing the suite was a leap of faith for many people who trust VB to put out a decent product.

I can't help those people, but I've got vBulletin 4.0, complete with the CMS and Blog, rocking and rolling over at my two web sites.

The CMS is unusable for many people now who already have sites running with the forums in the /forums/ directory (as the default instructions suggest) and who'd previously used VBA or some other solution as their homepage. The CMS was meant to be a solution for this, it was advertised and marketed as such. Arguing over definitions of turnkey/toolset is stupid as neither fit that well. VB was meant to be an easy to setup method for running a community. For those who want to it's amazingly customisable but at the same time, it works out the box for those who don't have the time/knowledge to make the alterations. The fact that there are still a lot of little bugs that should get cleaned up in January is fair enough and installing on the first day of Gold was always going to be a mistake but when they announce how it's a stable platform ready for live sites it's hard to blame people for believing them and then getting angry when it turns out not to be quite true yet. The fact the CMS can't be used as a homepage and that it's using a ridiculous number of queries are the two issues I have and I've tried to be constructive about this, we even got a response that 3 devs were working hard on the queries issue so it's disappointing that it went Gold while still in an unusable state.

It'll all get fixed in the end, it might be in January it might not be until later in the year but you can understand why some people aren't happy and what it signifies about the way future releases will be done.

[Trekkan]

If you buy INSTANT COFFEE from the grocery store, do you just drink the dry crystals out of the jar?

Or do you have to have at least a minimal amount of intelligence to be able to read the instructions on the package, which is where it tells you to boil water, put a certain measurement of the product into a cup, pour the water over it, and stir -- BEFORE consuming it?

And if you can't just drink it out of the jar without first making it, does that mean the company LIED to you when they sold you "instant coffee"?

For some, the issues ARE minimal, for others, they are not. It has nothing to do with someones skill level, or otherwise. It has to do with functionality/features THEY are using that are not working as they should. Because you don't have the issue, doesn't negate someone else's issues. We all know there's WORK involved, that's not the issue. The issue is a lot of us are fighting against the software because it doesn't do what it's supposed to and we're frustrated with the "support" we're being given now that the product is "gold". We don't expect perfection, vB and any software is never that, but many of us can't launch vB4 due to the issues we have. Whether you think these issues are important enough for us to hold back our launches or not isn't your call to make, it's ours.

I agree that complaining only and whatnot isn't going to solve anything, but with the amount of people here that fanboy it up and try to stomp on people for being frustrated with "gold" product release is sad. Again, just because you aren't experiencing the issues, doesn't mean they don't exist for someone else.

[Jaffery]

Actually your point is invalid, I have been using Joomla for some while and the community and volunteers always came with answers since their are more professionals working on it since it is opensource.

Agreed.. since I was using opensource forum for more than 5 years and getting help is easier and quicker there than on VB. I have VB now as I wanted to try it too. Still running few other forums on opensource.

[LbR]

Go for myBB then, maybe you can save up those dollars for some food

[Hotpuppy]

I would have said its marketed as turnkey. Show me where its marketed purely as a toolkit.

Turnkey is a television... You plug it in, turn it on, it does what it should. Vbulletin by it's very definition is not turnkey. When you install it the database is empty.. .and content is the value of your site.

Toolkit is something that enables you to do something else. Vbulletin lets you build a valuable, powerful community. Sure it has some sharp edges... but so does every major piece of software. I still think it's the best out there.

The CMS piece appears to work just fine to me.... maybe not as slick as The Houston Chronicle's implementation of wordpress.... but it's similar enough that users are telling me it looks like a newspaper and that's good enough for me. One user said "I thought I was on the wrong site at first... it looked so slick and professional.... good job".