Will there be a Lawsuit from UBB???

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  • David Copeland
    Senior Member
    • May 2000
    • 1354
    • 4.2.5

    Will there be a Lawsuit from UBB???

    I asked this question on the phone tonight to a Vbulletin client,
    but thought it would be a fair question to ask here
    before my company invests a lot of time and cash in
    using the V software.

    1) Is there anything in the script code of Vbulletin
    that could potentially be in violation of copyrights that
    UBB may own?

    2) Is there any potential that UBB may have cause to sue
    for violation of "theme features", such as the VERY SIMILAR,
    if not all-out duplication of the "look" of UBB in the
    Vbulletin software?

    3) Does Vbulletin have a retained federal copyright
    attorney that has already addressed these concerns? If
    so, can you please direct me to his/her law office?

    --------
    My agenda is very similar to all others here, in so much that
    I am fed up with the lack of support from UBB, along with
    the required bandwidth to run UBB software and the subsequent
    price we must pay to support such as forum site.

    We are also one of the clients who lost ALL of our data,
    forum files, etc at UBB Networks, which has since been sold
    out to another company who has yet to give us any hope.

    I am impressed with the speed, and the hosting price to
    support a forum run on Vbulletin. But after getting burned
    before, I MUST ask these questions before I can go to my
    director or authorization of a change.

    Thank you for your consideration of my questions.

    David Copeland

    DAVID COPELAND
    Licensed VB Holder Since 2000
    Celebrating 22 Years with VB
  • Martin
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2000
    • 4783
    • 3.5.x

    #2
    David, I'm not a copyright attorney, but I can tell you that since this code was written from the ground up in a completely different language, there is no basis for a suit. The code performs the same function, yes, but a Chevy drives pretty much like a Ford, too.

    The only thing they can actually copyright is the code they use to perform a function and the graphics that come tih the package, not the function it performs.
    The trend lately among larger comapnies seems to be patenting processes (Amazon and Priceline, for example). Well, since there were BBS systems long before UBB, they have no grounds to try for a retroactvie patent on the process.
    They cannot copyright the look of their system. If they could, I'm sure they already would have and they would have already shut down the plethora of look-alike boards that are written in Perl. If "themes" could be copyrighted, everyone would be suing everyone on the internet. How much originality is there really out there?

    As to whether John and James have hired a copyright atty, I cannot answer for them. That one they will have to address themselves.
    Webmaster:
    @forumz

    Comment

    • Mark Hewitt
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2000
      • 1195
      • 4.1.x

      #3
      Look and feel cannot be copyrighted and you cannot copy the idea of a bulletin board system, UBB would have to show specific tangible things which have been straight copied and I cannot find any of significance.

      Plus if the UBB wanted to sue vBulletin they would have to do so through the UK courts a federal attorney wouldn't do them any good at all!
      Motorsport Forums

      Comment

      • David Copeland
        Senior Member
        • May 2000
        • 1354
        • 4.2.5

        #4
        Then . . .

        Then . . .
        They should have on board an international copyright and trademark attorney or solicitor.

        We have offices in the USA, Canada, and London too, but whenever an issue arises we always let our legal staff preview the venture.

        As for themes, you may want to consider that courts have found for the original copyright holder of lyrics and music, when the obvious theme of the music with different lyrics can be found in violation of copyrights, even when the music bars are modified slightly. But that's music, and the Internet is a new international enterprise. Still, an internationll copyright/trademark solictor in Britain should look at this.

        Another 2 questions:

        When exactly will the next version be released that is to address all the bugs?

        And, although Vbulletin can easily import UBB files, can UBB easily import Vbulletin files if we should want to reverse the process because of a possible legal choice?

        DAVID COPELAND
        Licensed VB Holder Since 2000
        Celebrating 22 Years with VB

        Comment

        • Martin
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2000
          • 4783
          • 3.5.x

          #5
          John said the next release should be ready by the end of the week.

          No, you cannot go backwards on the transfer of data. UBB would hafta come up with a script for that if they wanted to try to attract customers from here.
          I'm fairly sure the conversion routine could be reverse engieered in the opposite direction, though.
          Webmaster:
          @forumz

          Comment

          • David Copeland
            Senior Member
            • May 2000
            • 1354
            • 4.2.5

            #6
            Anybody Home?

            Was wondering if any of the owners are home that can address my questions?

            DAVID COPELAND
            Licensed VB Holder Since 2000
            Celebrating 22 Years with VB

            Comment

            • Martin
              Senior Member
              • Apr 2000
              • 4783
              • 3.5.x

              #7
              David, you might want to repost this in the Questions forum. I don't think John and James check this forum very often since they are busy tyring to get the next release out.

              I meant to make John aware of the topic but it slipped my mind.
              Webmaster:
              @forumz

              Comment

              • werehere
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2000
                • 1827

                #8
                This may be a question that you would get more of a response from if it was over email.

                Not saying that is the case, but it may help.
                We're Here Forums!
                [email protected]

                Comment

                • spryde
                  New Member
                  • May 2000
                  • 1

                  #9
                  Music is different from software

                  As for themes, you may want to consider that courts have found for the original copyright holder of lyrics and music, when the obvious theme of the music with different lyrics can be found in violation of copyrights, even when the music bars are modified slightly. But that's music, and the Internet is a new international enterprise. Still, an internationll copyright/trademark solictor in Britain should look at this.
                  The music business is significantly different from the software business. Apple has tried to sue Microsoft in the past over the "Look and Feel" concepts and every time has been smacked down by the judge in each case. "Look and Feel" has been determined by the US courts at least to be an issue that is something people have to deal with.

                  Now, last time I checked, Infopop held zero patents related to UBB (or any for that matter) so the lawsuits based on code are irrelevant. Since the code of vB is written in an entirely different language from UBB, the code copyright lawsuit cannot be used. I addressed look and feel earlier so that can't be done (since both corporations are assumed to be in the USA).

                  Edit Ok, Jelsoft is based in the UK. I can almost be 100% certain Apple has tried a suit there v. MS back in the late 80s/early 90s and they too were thrown out of court.

                  As far as I can tell, Infopop is free to try to sue on any of the above grounds but they will have a very hard time finding a basis for a suit. Especially if the vB lawyer is worth anything.

                  SP

                  [Edited by spryde on 05-25-2000 at 11:57 AM]

                  Comment

                  • David Copeland
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2000
                    • 1354
                    • 4.2.5

                    #10
                    Thanks SP

                    Thank you for your reply. You seem to know a little about the Apple history, and it sounds like it applies in this case.

                    DAVID COPELAND
                    Licensed VB Holder Since 2000
                    Celebrating 22 Years with VB

                    Comment

                    • Mark Hewitt
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2000
                      • 1195
                      • 4.1.x

                      #11
                      There is no patents on the UBB because you cannot patent computer software but you can copyright it.

                      If the vBulletin code was copied from the UBB and just translated into a different laguage (which I'm sure it wasn't) then this would be an apaption and infopop would still hold the copyright.
                      Motorsport Forums

                      Comment

                      • werehere
                        Senior Member
                        • Apr 2000
                        • 1827

                        #12
                        Yeah some people do not understand that this software did not just port the UBB to PHP, it was completely written from scratch in PHP. It looks like the UBB, but I have been fairly familiar with both, and the code is not even similar.
                        We're Here Forums!
                        [email protected]

                        Comment

                        • cheeky
                          Member
                          • Apr 2000
                          • 73

                          #13
                          no legal experts in here...

                          It is clearly obvious the support for vB from it's members and the lack of understanding of copyrights by said members, also. But the strength of support should not over-ride ignorance of the laws. That would be a grave error to make.

                          I'd be very careful about undertaking such venture's and ask that both John & James seek professional legal advice regarding their product. I'd also ask that they make a clear legal statement regarding the status of their software, as the scripting alone, is not the issue here.

                          You will be very surprised what you can get prosecuted for these days and there are considerable more "similarities" than you care to confess.

                          I think you'll find that it could be a bumpy ride, if certain parties wish to pursue matters. Sorry to sound negative but the advice should be taken in a positive manner, but I am talking from experience.

                          Comment

                          • Mark Hewitt
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2000
                            • 1195
                            • 4.1.x

                            #14
                            ok then cheeky or anyone I ask you to point to anything in vBulletin which you could go to court and say that is a substantial piece of work which has been copied from the UBB .

                            Forget look and feel it cannot be copyrighted
                            Motorsport Forums

                            Comment

                            • cheeky
                              Member
                              • Apr 2000
                              • 73

                              #15
                              okay, I won't dwell on this point as most of last night was spent on another thread on this board trying to answer these questions.

                              I did point out some extraordinary content in the form of the support materials that surounds the engine, the FAQ section being a prime candidate, the wording, structure and format looks to have been directly "lifted" from uBB but rushed. This and other elements suggest that there is a "pattern" of "copy-n-paste" going on here, but let's not dwell too long on that issue as has been done to death in another thread.

                              I have gone out of my way to ask seasoned veterans what they genuinely thought of the 2 products and they concluded that yes, vB has most likely been written from scratch but has every indication that it was a port from the open source but licensed and copyrighted uBB flat text file to database. The conversion and upgrade of one competitors system is something that needs to be addressed.

                              It's getting rediculous that jaunts are being made that when uBB releases something, vB follow shortly afterwards with virtually the same thing but in another language.

                              We can knock this back and forth all day, but as I've said before....the scale of this venture could be very large and it would be a positive move for vB to seek both legal council in the UK, US and globally to ascertain their legal position regarding the accusations of "lifted" content.

                              Basically, this product runs uncomfortably close to uBB & vB needs to spend some serious money on professional legal advice to determine and clarify the situation for all concerned, regarding ALL of the issues that have been raised WITHOUT exception.

                              This is the right and professional thing to do, to ensure that correct procedures have been followed and there is no breach of copyright and possible withdrawel of service.

                              Only then we will know the real position.
                              There should be no more speculation.



                              Comment

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