Opensource vs Closedsource

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  • Paul J
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2001
    • 1053

    #31
    They're known as vBilletin for a reason.

    It's a horrible license scheme, and it's widley known as such.

    IMHO.

    Comment

    • Steve Machol
      Former Customer Support Manager
      • Jul 2000
      • 154488

      #32
      Originally posted by Paul J
      Not at all, I think the leased license is a superb idea.

      I think that charging people on a yearly basis once they have purchased an owned license is unecessary and unfair.
      So you think that once you purchase the software you are entitled to all upgrades in perpetuity? I'm not sure that's a very good business model. In fact can you point out which commercial software companies currently do this?

      As for security fixes, I do believe that offering a way to patch products is appropriate. In fact we do that very thing by posting specific code to fix security problems when they become known. I think the system could be improved but I don't think the answer is to give away free upgrades forever.
      Steve Machol, former vBulletin Customer Support Manager (and NOT retired!)
      Change CKEditor Colors to Match Style (for 4.1.4 and above)

      Steve Machol Photography


      Mankind is the only creature smart enough to know its own history, and dumb enough to ignore it.


      Comment

      • CeleronXT
        Senior Member
        • Mar 2002
        • 3217

        #33
        I've never seen exact code posted to fix security holes.... I always thought it wasn't posted because it could easily reveal the way to hack older/unupgraded boards.
        "63,000 bugs in the code, 63,000 bugs, you get 1 whacked with a service pack, now there's 63,005 bugs in the code."
        "Before you critisize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you critisize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes."
        Utopia Software - Current Software: Utopia News Pro (news management system)

        Comment

        • Steve Machol
          Former Customer Support Manager
          • Jul 2000
          • 154488

          #34
          Originally posted by CeleronXT
          I've never seen exact code posted to fix security holes.... I always thought it wasn't posted because it could easily reveal the way to hack older/unupgraded boards.
          Here's just one of many examples:



          However not all can be posted because of the reasons you mentioned as well as the complexity of some of the fixes. This is why I said the system could be improved.
          Steve Machol, former vBulletin Customer Support Manager (and NOT retired!)
          Change CKEditor Colors to Match Style (for 4.1.4 and above)

          Steve Machol Photography


          Mankind is the only creature smart enough to know its own history, and dumb enough to ignore it.


          Comment

          • Paul J
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2001
            • 1053

            #35
            Originally posted by Steve Machol
            So you think that once you purchase the software you are entitled to all upgrades in perpetuity? I'm not sure that's a very good business model. In fact can you point out which commercial software companies currently do this?
            With all due respect, Steve. vBulletin is not an operating system, it's a bbs script.

            If you can point me to another php script that has such a strangulating license then I'll point you to a few software companies that don't have such a license.

            Comment

            • Steve Machol
              Former Customer Support Manager
              • Jul 2000
              • 154488

              #36
              I'm not interested in getting into an argument over this, but the burdon of proof is on you. Please provide a list of other commercial software in which all upgrades are available for free and forever. The fact that this is written in PHP is immaterial.
              Steve Machol, former vBulletin Customer Support Manager (and NOT retired!)
              Change CKEditor Colors to Match Style (for 4.1.4 and above)

              Steve Machol Photography


              Mankind is the only creature smart enough to know its own history, and dumb enough to ignore it.


              Comment

              • Paul J
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2001
                • 1053

                #37
                My point wasn't about the language it was written in. My point was that you're charging OS type prices for a php script.

                $30 a year after dropping $160 is insane. This software, at this point in time is no longer worth $160.

                Comment

                • Steve Machol
                  Former Customer Support Manager
                  • Jul 2000
                  • 154488

                  #38
                  I respectfully disagree. I once wrote and sold an optical laboratory software program written in PowerBasic. The charge for it was $1250. I sold several copies at that price and eventually sold the rights to the program for $20,000.

                  Why this price? That was what the market would bear. It was a fairly small market and the return on investment of my time in writing the program caused the price to be higher than it would have been if I had a potential market of millions of customers.

                  In the end, I believe that the current pricing model for vBulletin will prove to be an enduring business model. The key, however, is that we continue to provide superior software and support. If we fail in that regard, then the price issue is irrelevant. We will die as a company.
                  Steve Machol, former vBulletin Customer Support Manager (and NOT retired!)
                  Change CKEditor Colors to Match Style (for 4.1.4 and above)

                  Steve Machol Photography


                  Mankind is the only creature smart enough to know its own history, and dumb enough to ignore it.


                  Comment

                  • Tolitz
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2000
                    • 1371
                    • 2.3.0

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Paul J
                    If you can point me to another php script that has such a strangulating license then I'll point you to a few software companies that don't have such a license.
                    Incursio Censura ... $149 and $49 each year after that
                    Photopost ... $149 and $49 each year after that
                    In-Link ... $195/year
                    UBBThreads ... $229 and $125 (!!) each year after that

                    ... for starters...
                    This software, at this point in time is no longer worth $160.
                    How about some proof to back up that claim. I mean, I don't really see the problem here ... for instance, are you using InvisionBoard coz it's FREE or because it's better? If your benchmark on the economics of computer programming will be based on "free software", then your final analysis will always be hopelessly skewed, especially if you're not selling or distributing software yourself...
                    OPEN TECH SUPPORT
                    "Tech is our middle name!"

                    Comment

                    • Paul J
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2001
                      • 1053

                      #40
                      Originally posted by Tolitz
                      are you using InvisionBoard coz it's FREE or because it's better?
                      Are you using Apache because it's FREE or because it's better?

                      I'd gladly pay for Apache, as I would (and am going to) pay for Invisionboard. I don't want this to be a vB vs IPB debate, but it's clearly better, IMO.

                      One day using it's admincp opened my eyes.

                      Comment

                      • DirectPixel
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2002
                        • 4703
                        • 3.5.x

                        #41
                        I envy iB's speed and the amount of queries used on all the pages, but one day of using its admincp opened my eyes to how powerful vBulletin's template system is.

                        Sure, the other features are great, but what are those features if your forum looks exactly like everybody else's? Frankly, if iB's template, style, and replacements system were exactly like vBulletin's, I would switch.

                        Unfortunately, they're not which is why I am sticking with vBulletin. (Also because of vB3... if it turns out to be what it is hyped to be)
                        :)

                        Comment

                        • Wayne Luke
                          vBulletin Technical Support Lead
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 73981

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Raz Meister
                          I've never understood why you have to buy an "upgrade licence" for the members area to download security fixes...other versions and enhancements yes, but not for a security bug. They should be given to all members free of charge.

                          IMHO only of course. I'm sure Jelsofts business plan disagrees with me though.
                          Actually, if the fix is easy to implement and confined to a small number of files, you will find security fixes posted in the Bug forums long before a new release comes out. They are free to download to any licensed member of these forums.
                          Translations provided by Google.

                          Wayne Luke
                          The Rabid Badger - a vBulletin Cloud demonstration site.
                          vBulletin 5 API

                          Comment

                          • CeleronXT
                            Senior Member
                            • Mar 2002
                            • 3217

                            #43
                            One thing that saves on iB's queries is that it's not templated. That's something that you want. If it were to be templated, it would definetly add more queries. Right now, I believe everything is hard coded right into the files. This saves on many-a-query, not having to pull out all these random templates.
                            "63,000 bugs in the code, 63,000 bugs, you get 1 whacked with a service pack, now there's 63,005 bugs in the code."
                            "Before you critisize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you critisize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes."
                            Utopia Software - Current Software: Utopia News Pro (news management system)

                            Comment

                            • Paul J
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2001
                              • 1053

                              #44
                              Originally posted by CeleronXT
                              One thing that saves on iB's queries is that it's not templated. That's something that you want. If it were to be templated, it would definetly add more queries. Right now, I believe everything is hard coded right into the files. This saves on many-a-query, not having to pull out all these random templates.
                              No templates? What?

                              IPB uses templates, and they are easier to edit than vB's.

                              Comment

                              • CeleronXT
                                Senior Member
                                • Mar 2002
                                • 3217

                                #45
                                Aren't iB's templates all stored in files in a /templates/ folder?

                                Sure, the other features are great, but what are those features if your forum looks exactly like everybody else's? Frankly, if iB's template, style, and replacements system were exactly like vBulletin's, I would switch.
                                By reading that, one would assume it's not easier to edit than vB's.
                                "63,000 bugs in the code, 63,000 bugs, you get 1 whacked with a service pack, now there's 63,005 bugs in the code."
                                "Before you critisize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you critisize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes."
                                Utopia Software - Current Software: Utopia News Pro (news management system)

                                Comment

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