phpBB goes all CSS / tablefree

[JakeS]

Well guys, as long as they work I don't care if it has tables or not.

[Cromulent]

The major benefit on a CSS based site is ease of coding. I find all the nested tables in vBulletins default template highly confusing, in fact so confusing I have decided to leave it as it is so that I don't end up mucking anything up. On the other hand CSS based sites are much easier to read the code and understand, thus making design and implementation that much faster (and in my case possible at all).

[---MAD---]

As Dean says, Theoretically.

As long as you have the proper knowledge and training, XHTML/CSS design gives you several concrete benefits.

These can include:

• Better Presentation of information.
• Accessibility.
• Usability in multiple clients.
• Faster presentation speed.

However the learning curve is more strict than slapping code in an HTML document and going with it. Go look at www.csszengarden.com. All the designs use the same XHTML but different CSS files. Some are good. Some are very "artsy" but impractical. Others are just plain impractical for most people.

Thats the sort of explanation I was after - thanks .

[Wayne Luke]

So it improves loading speed?

As Dean says, Theoretically.

As long as you have the proper knowledge and training, XHTML/CSS design gives you several concrete benefits.

These can include:

• Better Presentation of information.
• Accessibility.
• Usability in multiple clients.
• Faster presentation speed.

However the learning curve is more strict than slapping code in an HTML document and going with it. Go look at www.csszengarden.com. All the designs use the same XHTML but different CSS files. Some are good. Some are very "artsy" but impractical. Others are just plain impractical for most people.

[Dream]

I take out what I said, a cleaner code, easier to understand and modify is better, given CSS does that.

[Dean C]

So it improves loading speed?

Minutely, but remember it can only deliver it as fast as the server it's on. There are many factors involved in delivering a page to your browser, not just filesize

[Dream]

And makes standards zealots happy

/run

[---MAD---]

AlexanderT already stated that a couple of posts above this one.

So it improves loading speed?

[Wayne Luke]

what are the advantages of a tableless design?

AlexanderT already stated that a couple of posts above this one.

[---MAD---]

No one said it should. However it won't happen in a 3.X release. There are several reasons for this. The templates have to work on a wide range of installation. They should be as backwards compatible as possible with other versions in the same series (which is why most of the 3.5 and 3.0 quick tips still work in 3.6). And they have to be easy to use for people who don't know anything about HTML.

Let's look at that last one. Many of our customers are editing their templates in Frontpage and Dreamweaver. The templates are just parts of a page without any giving you an entire page. This means they don't render 100% in these programs, CSS positioning doesn't work, etc... They are not designers. They are simply people trying to make a website. To make a tableless design that would work for them would mean redoing the template system and rewriting portions of the code. phpBB took a logical step to do this which is their 3.X series. We have already said that the templates will be revamped in 4.0, again a logical step. To do it now would literally upset more customers than it would make happy. That is the unfortunate truth behind it all. I don't know what the templates will ultimately look like but I do hope for an improvement in 4.0.

I agree and see your point.

I think the PHP forum looks fantastic (first time I go on it btw).

I was wondering - what are the advantages of a tableless design?

[Wayne Luke]

You may prepare the customers for that, since it's for future version, which may be in years, I think we won't see vB4.0 Gold in 2007.

What do you mean prepare them? We don't have the resources to teach people proper XHTML/CSS design techniques. However as time gets closer, documentation and tutorials will be updated and new articles about customization will be released at vBulletin.org. If necessary we can probably put some basics in the manual with links to other resources.

[Milado]

You may prepare the customers for that, since it's for future version, which may be in years, I think we won't see vB4.0 Gold in 2007.

[Wayne Luke]

why should vBulletin continue to use tables?

No one said it should. However it won't happen in a 3.X release. There are several reasons for this. The templates have to work on a wide range of installation. They should be as backwards compatible as possible with other versions in the same series (which is why most of the 3.5 and 3.0 quick tips still work in 3.6). And they have to be easy to use for people who don't know anything about HTML.

Let's look at that last one. Many of our customers are editing their templates in Frontpage and Dreamweaver. The templates are just parts of a page without any giving you an entire page. This means they don't render 100% in these programs, CSS positioning doesn't work, etc... They are not designers. They are simply people trying to make a website. To make a tableless design that would work for them would mean redoing the template system and rewriting portions of the code. phpBB took a logical step to do this which is their 3.X series. We have already said that the templates will be revamped in 4.0, again a logical step. To do it now would literally upset more customers than it would make happy. That is the unfortunate truth behind it all. I don't know what the templates will ultimately look like but I do hope for an improvement in 4.0.

[Milado]

Another interesting post: 55 reasons to design in xhtml/css: http://www.khmerang.com/index.php?p=106

That's interesting enough.

[lklein]

I would like to see vBulletin go all CSS too.

But sometimes I wish there was a table button on the message post panel.