Webmaster's Dream Come True: No More Netscape!!!!

[Hooper]

"Using your argument against you, what would have happened if Netscape had never been replaced by IE in the spirit of competition? Would we all be running a sub-par browser today made by Andreeson?"

Yes we could quite possibly be using a subpar browser, but thinking that Netscape 7.0 would be a cure all with the record they have currently is a myth and wouldn't happen. It would suck as bad or worse than 6. That I am sure of.

"the value of Netscape in the marketplace is to keep IE improving."

I disagree. Netscape would be better off doing exaclty as they are. If all we ever had was IE5.0 or IE5.5 I would be happier than that of designing around Netscape. Many others would be also.

As far as as your statement on the other currently available browser technologies, I agree, they have a long way to go. I wouldn't rule them out like the masses did early on when AMD first came into the manufacturing picture. I see more potential in them than I ever have in Netscape.

I agree with competition and all you have said about it. I just think that the statements about Microsoft running the web was way out there when talking about Netscape walking away. In this case I just have to disagree with you and say that I am happy to see them go despite the loss of what you claim is competition or past competition. Yes I agree we need another browser that has the ability to compete. But Netscape was not it nor would it have been again if indeed they were the browser to have in the beginning.

You will see another browser technology competing with Microsofts IE within 5 years. It may not start off strong, but if the current technologies cannot compete, I assure you there will be another and MS will not rule the web nor will we license our servers from them. That I am sure of. And I only hope that others will not promote the idea of competition even with a company producing subpar software just to cope with their feelings about a Microsoft takover.

[thewitt]

Well we will agree to disagree and only time will tell.

The only reason that Netscape had a chance at making a run here was they were purchased by a company with enough money, clout and percentage of Internet users to make a difference. If AOL had funded the development of the next rev of Netscape using the Mozilla project base - and then installed it as the default browser within AOL's client distribution, then there would be some momentum for an alternative to IE.

v6 sucked. No doubt. It was also the first deployment of a completely new browser architecture, but a company trying to find it's place in the world. During this deployment, the company was purchased and the future was unknown. I do believe that a future existed with enough money behind it to make NS a viable product built on a great open source platform.

Now that AOL is not going forward with Netscape, there is no one who will have the sheer corporate mass and momentum to be anything other than an also-ran in the browser market. No major corporation will base their internal browser standard on Opera or MyFreeBrowser.Com. We still use Netscape internally (14000+ employees), and will be switching to IE now. Even this will take time, but it's destiny now.

As for what strongarm tactics Micro$oft will use to take full ownership of the web, again only time will tell. If history is any prediction of the future, there will be nothing benevolent in the way Billy treats those customers he has tied to the Microsoft Internet.

-t

[Hooper]

"Well we will agree to disagree and only time will tell."

I'll stop here and agree with the above statement. I appreciate your point of view. One thing I wrote that you had to notice was the fact that we are in the same forum. Obviously we both want good software and cutting edge technology as most do. Why else would we be in these forums?

[Fquist]

I LOVE this news.. but this won't keep idiots from using netscape.

[jucs]

YAHOOO!

Man, I just HATE having to do a design and have to pull up Netscrud (the only reason I have it on my PC) and see if it is screwed up.

GOOD BYE NETSCRUD!!

[thewitt]

Originally posted by Fquist
I LOVE this news.. but this won't keep idiots from using netscape.

It will certainly be around for many years.

I still have a significant number of visitors coming in with Netscape V3.n.

-t

[Kier]

thewitt -

I have absolutely no problem with providing a decent competitor to IE, but for God's sake, let's have a competitor that is actually half decent...

I lament the death of the pig of browsers not at all. Perhaps it will make way for a better competitor.

die netscape die - die netscape die - die netscape die - die netscape die - die netscape die - die netscape die - die netscape die - die netscape die - die netscape die - die netscape die - die netscape die - die netscape die - die netscape die - die netscape die - die netscape die - die netscape die

[Skeptical]

Die Netscape Die. Die Mark Andreeson Die. Die LoudCloud Die.
Die Netscape Die. Die Mark Andreeson Die. Die LoudCloud Die.
Die Netscape Die. Die Mark Andreeson Die. Die LoudCloud Die.
Die Netscape Die. Die Mark Andreeson Die. Die LoudCloud Die.
Die Netscape Die. Die Mark Andreeson Die. Die LoudCloud Die.
Die Netscape Die. Die Mark Andreeson Die. Die LoudCloud Die.
Die Netscape Die. Die Mark Andreeson Die. Die LoudCloud Die.
Die Netscape Die. Die Mark Andreeson Die. Die LoudCloud Die.
Die Netscape Die. Die Mark Andreeson Die. Die LoudCloud Die.
Die Netscape Die. Die Mark Andreeson Die. Die LoudCloud Die.
Die Netscape Die. Die Mark Andreeson Die. Die LoudCloud Die.
Die Netscape Die. Die Mark Andreeson Die. Die LoudCloud Die.

[John Harrison]

I think Netscape should have a feature that disables all its software so the thing can die in peace.

I dont think I will miss Netscape that much.

[thewitt]

Originally posted by Kier
thewitt -

I have absolutely no problem with providing a decent competitor to IE, but for God's sake, let's have a competitor that is actually half decent...

The problem here Kier is who is going to go head to head with Micro$oft to develop, market and support a free browser that's able to actually take market share.

AOL had a chance with Netscape. They were big enough as a corporation with revenue from enough sources to fund a loss-leader like this. Like or hate the latest version of Netscape, the product development team was on the right track with their Open Source vision. Their first release sucked, but they were on the right track.

Who do you see able to overcome the momentum that Micro$oft now has with IE? I don't believe there is anyone who has the backing and the drive to make that happen.

-t

[Wayne Luke]

IBM has the resources to do this. With their recent re-entry to the desktop operating system market via purchase of a majority stake in Redhat, their dominance in the big business world of Unix with AIX and the RS-6000 series of computers, and their stranglehold on the mini and mainframe markets with the AS/400 and larger machines, they have the resources.

They have the incentive as well. They need to provide the tools for their linux and AIX customers to be able to access the 'net. Lotus Notes is not going to be the platform to handle this. With the Mozilla Engine freely available, they may just be able to pull it off quickly and easily. Plus they have intimate knowledge of the Windows Operating System and will be able to ship a version compiled for it.

Despite Microsoft's large size, IBM is still the king of the computer industry.

There are four other potential competitors and we will have to see what they do....

#1 is Sun. This is Microsoft's sworn enemy. They are the most bitter rivals and Sun will do anything to come out on top. Hopefully if they do release a new browser it will be much better than HotJava.

#2 is Corel. Corel has recently entered the OS market as well, shipping their own commercial linux distribution along with their large suite of applications. Corel could mount an offensive. It will be more painful to this company than the others though because they have been on financially shaky ground for a long period of time.

#3 is Apple. Apple is tenacious and could develop a Macintosh browser based on Mozilla for distribution. The only thing that would hold Apple back is that Microsoft owns a majority stake in the company. However it is a non-voting stake and Microsoft does not have a seat on the boad. I am sure that Bill and Steve have exchanged phone numbers though.

#4 is Mozilla itself. This browser is open source and better than Netscape's own product. This alone gives it merit. It is widely available on multiple operating systems and supported with free contributions from many programmers.

The browser war is not over folks, just the same as the OS war is not over. You will continue to see fundamental changes in how computing is done over the next few years. Players will come and go but things will continue changing.

As browsers follow the standards better, the actual software used won't matter as long as your page is formatted and programmed correctly. For all the bugginess in Netscape 6.0's implementation, it sits on top of a solid engine that breathes new life into the Internet. An engine that opens possibilities of standard Internet Integration in OS'es and other Applications besides Windows. This is the key technology here and it is the core of innovation and advance.

[Hooper]

Damn Wayne,

I want an IBM browser now!!

[thewitt]

If IBM embeds a standards compliant browser in Notes, they may indeed enter the market, but I don't see them ever giving away a stand alone free browser in order to support their Domino web business. Perhaps when Micro$oft attempts to corrupt the web IBM will feel the need to do something, however I see them giving in to Micro$oft in order to support any IE customizations working on Domino servers, rather than bucking the installed base. Look at the way they opened up Notes to IMAP and POP clients, and opened up Notes to Outlook clients in general in order to maintain their dominance of the corporate messaging business. They have acknowledged Micro$oft as the leader on the desktop, and have relegated themselves to the server market.

Apple will never make inroads into the Windows application space. They may certainly ship an Open Source browser for OS X, and I'm sure if they do it will be an interesting project, but they are not, and have never been, a Windows development house.

Corel? Not likely.

Sun? Niche market at best. They are not on the desktop, and even giving away their attempt at a desktop presence with Star Office only resulting in a ho-hum response from the Linux community.

Mozilla? Yes, there will be a Mozilla browser. But unless it gets huge corporate support, it's not going to take over IE from its grass roots movement. Ultimately the Mozilla browser will have to handle the custom tags that end up being supported by IE - not the other way around.

I'm not going to be easily convinced here. I'll be glad to give you your props should any of these come to even be 20% of the browser market. I just don't believe it will happen.
Micro$oft will not release it's stranglehold, and will take every effort to kill off the remaining competition by non-standard tags and support for features only found in IE 7.0.

-t

[Hooper]

TheWitt,

Indeed we do not agree. I mentioned that within 5 years there would be viable competition in the browser market. Why is it that you continue with this moot as you call it conversation. Not that I agreed with all of Waynes possibilities (speaking of Apple), the fact is we here in the US have a monopoly for a government in some aspects. In other words and not condemning the nation in any form, we do not have 2 or more governments to choose from so to speak although some argue that Democratic and Republican are two seperate forms of government. We have one that writes and inforces the laws. So are you anti-government also? Now without getting into government politics and our privliges of voting here in the US, why do you continue to insist that Microsoft will one day own the cereal bowl I eat my wheaties out of?

I would put money on the fact that you are incorrect with respect to no one having the capacity to compete with IE. Mozilla indeed will one day play a larger role and in fact may not even be the competing factor. But there will indeed be another. With the statements you make, I would be inclined to believe that you too once believed that Intel processing would control the world when it came to the end user PC market. Why is it so hard for you to believe that the future looks bright for competitive business?

Just because YOU can't see it. Please. The fact that no one could ever see AMD playing a roll just a few short years ago should be incentive enough to believe that the competitive market place is not a thing of the past. I keep refering to AMD to make a point that for some odd reason you seem to overlook. AMD had no following even in the low end PC market in those days to speak of and not even considered competition much less a threat. And it's not that AMD has overthrown Intel by any means of the word, but indeed they have shown the world that the market can and will be competitive.

The only winner here is us. I will no longer make alterations to code to allow for a perfect Netscape display. I win and so do you.

I do think that the conversation is moot. Only the future will show what the past has already defined. The day MS shows up as the reigning web super power is the day I'll eat my words. Won't happen.

[thewitt]

My last post on the subject. I promise .

Micro$oft and Intel do not share marketing priciples at all. Intel probably could have kept AMD out if they had followed practices similar to what Micro$oft does. The US government is not a monopoly, you and I directly impact how the government operates through the electoral process. Neither are realistic comparisons to the practices of Gates and his minons in Redmond.

Bill will do his best to dominate the market using whatever tricks he can. I have spent the last 10 years dealing with one Micro$oft planned trick after another on a multi-million dollar annual basis. Just when we think that the dealing is done, he comes out with another plan like leasing Office instead of buying. If we choose not to go along, we'll have to spend several million more to sign up in the future. Monopoly? Not exactly. Hard-handed business practices? Absolutely.

For a number of years we tried to stall upgrades for Micro$oft products, and the lack of interopability one release to another simply forced our hand. This has cost my company millions over the last 10 years. There are no significantly new features in Office that anyone needs - only continued compatibility with the OS and future releases of Office. Frustrating. Yes. Strong-handed. Yes. Illegal? No.

Micro$oft has had no competition in the professional desktop space for quite some time and has been very sucessful milking it for all it's worth. They will soon own the browser market and will do the same in that space.

I'll be watching closely when you start complaining about coding your future website using FrontPage because you are not able to build in the necessary Micro$cript code using any other tools to take advantage of the latest version of IE that is now the standard/dominant tool on the desktop. I may be jaded, but my experience with Redmond over the years is the basis of my opinion.

Last one. Promise.

-t