Hongfire closed

[KBV]

Hongfire is up and running, read the response from Jelsoft on page two.

I was going trough Digg.com and came over a post about Hongfire having to close down because PirateReports.com took it upon themselves to revoke their vB license because they had "morally questionable" content on their website. No copyright infringement, no trademark breaking, just hentai, loli and the like.

What kinda gets to me is:
1. It's not illegal in the US.
2. It's not illegal in the UK yet.
3. They haven't broken any copyright rules, and the "content" was even hosted in a gallery, not vB itself.
4. The lawyer who contacted them - Howard G. Spinks - after being told where the content was hosted changed his view to include a poll on their forum about incest.

I don't know how things are done, but is it up to PirateReports to question the content which is directly governed under free speech? I thought there job was to protect Jelsoft from pirates who traffic their software illegally, not if the content is morally questionable or not.

Could I get an official response from a vB staff about this? Stuff like this kinda ticks me off, specially considering I run vB and would hate for the license to be revoked just because one of your lawyers don't like the content of a poll which is posted on my website.

Just to clarify, I do not condone what Hong Fire is about, but I would like to think that Free Speech rules in this case and that PirateReports and Jelsoft can't revoke a license because they find something offensive. And yes, I do understand it's up to Jelsoft if they want me to use the forum or not, but I did pay to use it, and I continue to this day to pay for it.

Any response appreciated.

[Freddie Bingham]

Considering that it is Saturday and tomorrow is Christmas Eve, it is going to take a few days before we can straighten all of this out. Please be assured that we are not going to start policing our customer's forums and revoking licenses because we do not agree with questionable content that is contained within.

[KBV]

Looking forward to your statement on this, things have been kinda hecktic as you can see in this Digg post

Have a merry christmas though!

[ManagerJosh]

Thank you Freddie for stepping up and making a calm and rationale statement to further investigate and evaluate the situation presented.

[nrw]

One of the comments made in the exchange was
"I anticipate you will have less than 48 hours to make any dleteions or transition so backup your database now to be safe and ready"

Does Jelsoft have the ability to remotely turn off, lock, and/or delete any or all of my web content, databases or any other access into my servers that is not documented, and if so, exactly how do they do this, what stops other people from doing it?

[Freddie Bingham]

One of the comments made in the exchange was
"I anticipate you will have less than 48 hours to make any dleteions or transition so backup your database now to be safe and ready"

Does Jelsoft have the ability to remotely turn off, lock, and/or delete any or all of my web content, databases or any other access into my servers that is not documented, and if so, exactly how do they do this, what stops other people from doing it?

No, simple as that.

[mrploddy]

Just so we're clear I'm in no way related to any party in this discussion and I'm posting of my own account to pass comment.

Software developers are entitled to determine how their software is used. Jelsoft are perfectly entitled to restrict use of their software on moral grounds.

If you search this forum there is a thread regarding vBSEO and how that modified version of the software has AUP which prohibits immoral use.

Where PirateReports failed in his attempts was that Jelsoft does not have any published documentation re terms of service or AUP which specifically restricts how their software may be used. The license agreement only prohibits copyright infringement. To have any legal standing the license agreement would needed to have had a specific clause such as
"The license holder may not use their software for any purpose which Jelsoft deems to be immoral the determination of which is solely that of Jelsoft and whose opinion may change at any time without prior notice"

Of course one of the standard conditions of any license agreement is that the licensor may change it at any time without notice, however at that point he is required to give due notice of the change before it happens to allow people who do not agree to withdraw and obtain a refund. For example my ISP's AUP specifically states that if they want to change AUP that they have to give me due notice and give me the opportunity to withdraw and change providers and if you don't reply after a certain time then you are deemed to have accepted those conditions.

If Jelsoft wishes to introduce such a clause they should send out a notice to all license holders giving them 30 days notice of the change and give those people who wish to end their license chance to do so before introducing the change.

I'll not get in to a debate about the morality of Hongfires content apart from saying that if they are banning non realistic / imaginery content then they should be sending out cease and desist emails to all literary websites which discuss things like say Caligula / A Clockwork Orange / Lolita. All of those are outside the bounds of normal taste but still considered legal in the UK.

I do hope that Jelsoft makes a definitive statement on this issue soon as it is impacting on internet free speech regardless of whether or not you agree/disagree with the content.

Regards

mrploddy
-A Concerned Onlooker

[JHung]

I hope you realize, Jelsoft, that a lot of bad press is going to result for the revocation of a license because of the content hosted on the software. People are going to be very wary of purchasing licenses with Jelsoft. I believe that stuff like this will be dugg up very fast. Once the press machine is turned on, it's very hard to turn off.

There are lots of alternatives. Don't think you're invincible. I like vBulletin, and use it, but I believe what you are doing is morally questionable. If you are going to police who uses your software, then I believe this is very bad policy and will no longer recommend your software on principle. Leave the policing to the hosts.

I hope you change your policies because I like vBulletin, but as I understand it, there are lots of alternatives.

There is one digg comment that I thought summarized the entire situation: "I don't understand. What does the forum system have anything to do with content? That's like a car company revoking your car because you committed a drive-by in it."

Could you also show us this "AUP"? I would like to read it and understand what I have accepted. In the interest of doing us customer service, please show us all of this as I am licensed vBulletin holder.

[30kChallenge]

Considering that it is Saturday and tomorrow is Christmas Eve, it is going to take a few days before we can straighten all of this out. Please be assured that we are not going to start policing our customer's forums and revoking licenses because we do not agree with questionable content that is contained within.

I'm glad to see this but your representation appears to me as a loose cannon. Here is another post from that company that irritated me.

http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showthread.php?t=200797

This part of his post really irked me

"From my reporting experience 95% of traded licenses turn out to be nullified or stolen details and the purchasers are left either with no site at all or having to purchase a license again to have their network restored."

That's a lot of scammers! (obvious sarcasm)

Cheers

[zatch]

I have nothing to do with any of the sites mentioned, but am a legitimate vBulletin license holder.

It seems very hypocritical for a company to discriminate against their clients based on content. You are but the middleman, correct? No one concludes that a child porn site running vBulletin means "clearly Jellsoft supports this activity" ... people are smarter than that. Wouldn't microsoft want to revoke it's license if it was hosted on a Windows server? Of course they wouldn't - that isn't their job!

What about free speech?

Yes, content may be illegal in one country, but does that matter? Would you shut down a forum criticizing the lack of freedoms in Iran, because it is illegal in Iran?

Jellsoft needs to think long and hard about what kind of role it is playing in the world.

[30kChallenge]

I have nothing to do with any of the sites mentioned, but am a legitimate vBulletin license holder.

It seems very hypocritical for a company to discriminate against their clients based on content. You are but the middleman, correct? No one concludes that a child porn site running vBulletin means "clearly Jellsoft supports this activity" ... people are smarter than that. Wouldn't microsoft want to revoke it's license if it was hosted on a Windows server? Of course they wouldn't - that isn't their job!

What about free speech?

Yes, content may be illegal in one country, but does that matter? Would you shut down a forum criticizing the lack of freedoms in Iran, because it is illegal in Iran?

Jellsoft needs to think long and hard about what kind of role it is playing in the world.

Let's all hope it's not Jellsoft. If you look at the thread I linked to above the Pirate Reports people seem to have their own unique views on everything.

[zatch]

Let's all hope it's not Jellsoft. If you look at the thread I linked to above the Pirate Reports people seem to have their own unique views on everything.

I agree but Jelsoft has a responsibility to contract out to people who will follow their business model.

[Mark.B]

There is much jumping of the gun here based on second and third hand information.

Jelsoft will I am sure come out with an official statement at some point, until then anything said is pure speculation.

[Para-HF]

Hello everyone,

I'm Para, senior administrator from HongFire.com.

First of all I would like to thank the community, fans and those who are supporting us in our cause. The staff and I are grateful for all the support everyone is providing us. I would like to also acknowledge vBulletin for continuing to bring high quality forum software to the market and Freddie Bingham for his prompt response and clarification on the stance of where vBulletin stands.

However I know Freddie, Steve and many other vB staff are rather upset by the fact there are so many people 'spamming' their support and such on our issue and I would like to ask people to please refrain from doing so.

My staff member and owner of HongFire.com, HongFire, informed me that he has been banned from this forum and he is unsure of why he's banned (he cannot post). He's already asked vBulletin for a reason as he only made 1 post about asking why his license was revoked but has not gotten one yet so I am here to represent my fellow staff and site for now until his banned issue is resolved.

Anyways, I've been reading up on everything including posts on digg.com, posts on vB and my site's head administrator, HongFire, conversation with Howard G Spinks.

We're very upset to have our license revoked on the most joyous occasions of the year after all the years of work we've done on our forum.

Howard G Spinks of piratereports has stated many times that our site breached the AUP but yet to outline specifically what portion. We're trying to ascertain where as what right Howard G Spinks has to revoke a license agreement with no legal basis so far. We're distraught that we have not come to any terms so far with Howard G Spinks and feel its necessary to contact vBulletin and Jelsoft directly. Though I've read posts from digg.com, there is a bit too much third party information around so I ask people to please do not jump to conclusions and further complicating the situation for both vB and us.

I hope we can come to a resolution soon between vBulletin and HongFire.com so we can all enjoy a merry Christmas this year.

[mattcohn]

Hi, a friend told me about this issue after reading about it on Digg.com and I'm extremely concerned for two reasons. First, I help on another forum with a vBulletin license, and although we're a general technology discussion forum the idea that vBulletin could revoke a license for reason of content is frightening and disgusting. Second, speaking of morals, it is morally wrong for one company to enforce its morals on another like this. Morals are subjective, and although I am personally disgusted at the idea of child pornography, this as I understand was animated. I don't like that any more what so ever, but as it stands that's legal in both the countries in question and although we may not like it, subjecting our moral views on others leads down a dark path.

People keep pointing to PirateReports, and a note on the website specificially said not to bug Jelsoft about this, however as I see it Jelsoft is the one at the end of the day writing checks to PirateReports. Jelsoft hired PirateReports as its representative, and as such has its own reputation to protect. If Jelsoft allows PirateReports to act dominating and repressive of freedom of speach as has happened in this situation, Jelsoft is acting as such though proxy. Jelsoft needs to tell PirateReports to back off NOW, or Jelsoft is just as guilty.

Jelsoft, stop this now.