vB3 Importers.

[Jerry]

ImpEx, the vB3 import system.

[Rocky_BBQ]

Is this free to members? If not, what is the cost?

[nwingate]

Thats the question I think everyone is wondering.....

[M1th]

Thats the question I think everyone is wondering.....


according to this:


The vBulletin 3 Importer system is now completed. Unlike the vB2 system, the import system will not be downloadable by customers, and instead imports will be performed as a service to customers by Jelsoft staff.


so I'm assuming it IS going to be free.

[Jerry]

In a word, yes.

The way it will work is that an import is provided for a customer, the sight is then staged and reviewed for HTML parsing errors, permissions checking etc.

If there is something wrong by agreement, then the importer is updated and the import is done again, so this stage could happen a few times, though all the phpBB imports I'm doing at the moment are fine first time.

Finally once the customer is happy, the vB3 SQL for the imported sight is made downloadable.

So effectively that is one free import end to end.

As for second third and fourth sites I'm going to have to pass that one to Kier &/or Ashley as its more of a business decision opposed to a technical one.

The majority of this process will be automated, though in the mean time I will be handling the imports.

[d3nnis]

i think in future it will be chargeable... still have alot of vb2 users out there...

[Waza04]

OK - After a submission - how long will it take??

I have just submitted via the linked form along with a link to my database zipped.

Still no reply...

[sebe]

well... i think the truth is more in pirates, rather than actually 'helping' the customer. it doesn't take a genius to figure out what Jelsoft is trying to do.

it may help out some customers.. but its not going to help those web developers that import/maintain forums for clients.

god knows how long someone has to wait now until a staff member feels like doing the import.

i've waited days just to get some questions answered..

[Breaker]

i can't see this going down to well. i see what you are doing, but this appears like a bad idea.

[Steve Machol]

i've waited days just to get some questions answered..Can you tell me which support tickets you've waited days on? Generally we respond to all support requests within one hour. Occassionally some requests require the knowledge of one specific person and can take longer. I'd like to see what happened with your requests. Please send me a PM with the ticket numbers. Thanks.

[GamerZ]

well... i think the truth is more in pirates, rather than actually 'helping' the customer. it doesn't take a genius to figure out what Jelsoft is trying to do.I also think it is. But it is kinda troublesome.

[cirisme]

Interesting. Is there any limit to the size of the database being imported?

What about importing a hacked phpBB or IPB? Obviously Jelsoft couldn't import the functionality of the hack, etc... but if I were importing a hacked IPB I probably wouldn't import if I would lose that data.

I'm a tweaker and prefer to do these sorts of things myself... but it doesn't really matter to me since I already use vB I'm just curious. :p

[Scott MacVicar]

well... i think the truth is more in pirates, rather than actually 'helping' the customer. it doesn't take a genius to figure out what Jelsoft is trying to do.

it may help out some customers.. but its not going to help those web developers that import/maintain forums for clients.

god knows how long someone has to wait now until a staff member feels like doing the import.

i've waited days just to get some questions answered..
If you read the bottom of Jerry's announcement it mentions that development is progressing on a fully automated system.

You would upload your database to the vBulletin Import Server via FTP or have the Import Server download it from a specific URL. The system would then import into vB3 and let you see the end result, if its not satisfactory you can clear the import and try again.

Though one you finalise the import and accept the result you will only be able to download that completed database.

[Jerry]

OK - After a submission - how long will it take??

I have just submitted via the linked form along with a link to my database zipped.

Still no reply...

I've been away for the last few days and am just getting back to it now.

I have managed to automate a lot of it, and that will improve even more with customer facing tools and automatic feedback, its getting the process sorted now.

An average import takes less that 5 mins, so it isn't that which is an issue, I've done the techi bit now. Now it time to improve and work on the process.

[Jerry]

Interesting. Is there any limit to the size of the database being imported?

What about importing a hacked phpBB or IPB? Obviously Jelsoft couldn't import the functionality of the hack, etc... but if I were importing a hacked IPB I probably wouldn't import if I would lose that data.

I'm a tweaker and prefer to do these sorts of things myself... but it doesn't really matter to me since I already use vB I'm just curious. :p

Have to dash now before my date shoots me !!! I'll answer all this in full tomrrow :)

[cirisme]

If you read the bottom of Jerry's announcement it mentions that development is progressing on a fully automated system.

You would upload your database to the vBulletin Import Server via FTP or have the Import Server download it from a specific URL. The system would then import into vB3 and let you see the end result, if its not satisfactory you can clear the import and try again.

Though one you finalise the import and accept the result you will only be able to download that completed database. Thanks, that did clear some things up. :)


Have to dash now before my date shoots me !!! I'll answer all this in full tomrrow :) Hahaha... no worries I was just curious is all. ;)

[GamerZ]

If you read the bottom of Jerry's announcement it mentions that development is progressing on a fully automated system.

You would upload your database to the vBulletin Import Server via FTP or have the Import Server download it from a specific URL. The system would then import into vB3 and let you see the end result, if its not satisfactory you can clear the import and try again.

Though one you finalise the import and accept the result you will only be able to download that completed database.yea that sounds cool and better.

[Bryan Ex]

One question... phpBB2 > VB3 imports - do the userid's still change during this process?

Jerry... my server crashed and burned last weekend. Hoping to have my mail system back online later today. PM might be best in the mean time if needed.

[The Prohacker]

We own several forums and we are always looking to purchase other ones. Many of our sites have 1-2gb size databases, you guys want us to dump the information into a text .sql file and upload it to your servers? We don't even do that for backups, we use MySQL replication.. Our largest forum is amost 11gb as a text dump!

Also what about the privacy concerns? Doesn't this violate the privacy policy many sites have with their users? Why would we want to give your company the information for all of our users?

Many of the sites we purchase have hacks installed, and we spend sometimes days rewriting part of the importer to work around the hacks to import or even to just work! Should we expect your team to do the same work that we do?

We have a development team in house to take care of our forums who are bound under NDA/NCAs are we going to expect the same level of protection for our company with Jelsoft?

[user 1-2-3]

I also think, that it's bad idea. I have 6 licenses and didn't start use even one... So if it was promised, importers scripts should be released.

[Zachery]

Theres no need for them to be released, vBulletin's Staff will do the imports for you. :) this esnures no errors that the process will be done correctly.

[user 1-2-3]

We can do it ourself. Please do what you promise.

[Zachery]

I honestly never remember seeing anything ever being said about the importers being promised to be released.

[poolking]

We can do it ourself. Please do what you promise.
In your previous post you assumed something was promised with the statement "if it was promised."

Care to post evidence that makes you now so sure?

[user 1-2-3]

Look here: http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=98236&highlight=importers

The vB3 import scripts will be released next week

[Zachery]

They were, you have access to recive an import :)

i dont see any staff member saying

"i promise that the vB3 importers will be avalible for download"

They are released anyone can request an import from the members area.

[hockyfan]

Will there be a vB-vB importer released?


h

[poolking]

Look here: http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=98236&highlight=importers
As Zachery said, no promises there and "released" doesn't have to mean that you can do the import yourself.

[user 1-2-3]

It's always up to you, how you deal with your customers. I just told you my opinion - it's bad idea and I don't like it. You make realy good product - vB3. Don't let your brain fall into "giddiness from success" (not sure how it sounds in English, but sure, you'll understand).

[Wayne Luke]

Will there be a vB-vB importer released?
One is planned as far as I know, but I do not know of a timeline for it at this exact moment.

[Wayne Luke]

We have a development team in house to take care of our forums who are bound under NDA/NCAs are we going to expect the same level of protection for our company with Jelsoft?
Our staff are under Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete as well. We won't even see your data, we just process the import. At the time your import is finalized, the submitted data will be deleted.

[poolking]

It's always up to you, how you deal with your customers. I just told you my opinion - it's bad idea and I don't like it. You make realy good product - vB3. Don't let your brain fall into "giddiness from success" (not sure how it sounds in English, but sure, you'll understand).
So what makes you come to that conclusion?

So you are saying that allowing Jelsoft to do the imports for you, so its less of a headache for you, going to turn vb3 into a bad product.

If I had a large non-vb forum that I wanted to import, I'd welcome the help from Jelsoft to lessen the burden and get on with other aspects of running a forum.

[user 1-2-3]

vB is still good. Bad is a policy, because customers has no choice. The reasons "why" see in the posts above.

It's "Disscussions", isn't it? It's my opinion. It's Jelsoft business what to do with it - ignore or keep in mind...

[Driv3r]

Nice job Jerry. :)

[Shane]

I think is good idea. It keeps people who download and install vB 'illeaglly' from upgrading to vB without having to start over. Good decusion Jelsoft. :)

[c0bra]

I can completely understand the logic of the decision from a business standpoint, but unfortunately this policy will mean I wont be able to recommend any future business clients move over to vBulletin community software. We're unable to allow any third party access to our databases, regardless of any NDAs or non-competes you have with your staff internally. And I wouldn't be comfortable going through the process even for personal use to be honest. Hope it works out for guys though. ;)

[Fiji]

I don't think so, but, this is a good idea, *IF* Jelsoft will release *downloadable* importers once they're they reach the stable state. What's the point about handle all import requests if everyone can do it themself following the user manual?

[Fiji]

I can completely understand the logic of the decision from a business standpoint, but unfortunately this policy will mean I wont be able to recommend any future business clients move over to vBulletin community software. We're unable to allow any third party access to our databases, regardless of any NDAs or non-competes you have with your staff internally. And I wouldn't be comfortable going through the process even for personal use to be honest. Hope it works out for guys though. ;)
Yeah, I'm offering import between boards service, and Jelsoft make my offer less attractive :P

j/k

[The Prohacker]

Our staff are under Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete as well. We won't even see your data, we just process the import. At the time your import is finalized, the submitted data will be deleted.
But what about an NDA/NCA between our company and Jelsoft? What kinds of protection of our data is offered? How are we guaranteed that the submitted information will be removed?

[sidhighwind]

my one question is how will the import work for something like ubb5 or someother text file driven forum?

[Zachery]

I don't think so, but, this is a good idea, *IF* Jelsoft will release *downloadable* importers once they're they reach the stable state. What's the point about handle all import requests if everyone can do it themself following the user manual?
They are at a stable state :)

[Wayne Luke]

But what about an NDA/NCA between our company and Jelsoft? What kinds of protection of our data is offered? How are we guaranteed that the submitted information will be removed?
This is an issue that should be discussed between your company and our business manager in the support ticket system. Honestly, I don't see an issue with Jelsoft as a company working with your company to provide the level of guarantees you need to perform the services you offer.

[AWS]

Not that I will ever need to convert any forums. I converted my last to vb last week and if I open any more I will start with vb. I do have some questions.
If you want to convert you have to send a zip of your data and then someone will convert it for you and you can donload the converted db. Is that correct?
If that is right then wouldn't downtime be fairly long?
You'd have to close your board, dump the db, zip it up and submit to Jelsoft, wait for someone to convert it and then download it and set up the converted board.
From an enduser stand point it would take far less time for a person to download the script, close the board and do the conversion. You have control of how long the site is closed.
It just seems this will add unneeded hassle and downtime to the whole process.

[Wayne Luke]

As stated above, the process is being further automated so you can plug in the values in the form and get your converted data back in about 5 minutes.

Right now, there will be some additional downtime but this issue is being worked on.

[Floris]

Great announcement Jerry. I am glad the choice was made to keep this in-house.

[Breaker]

i wuld personally prefer to be able to run the scripts myself, a vB team member wont always be around and sometimes you just want to get stuff out of the way. Of course it will be alot less hassle IMO to do it myself, no worries of data being corrupted while uploading database or whatever. It's your choice what you want to do, but it dont bother me as i have no need to use them.

[AlexanderT]

Also what about the privacy concerns? Doesn't this violate the privacy policy many sites have with their users? Why would we want to give your company the information for all of our users?
That was exactly the first thing that came into my mind as well.

Beside violating the privacy policy, imagine this scenario: vB.com Ftp gets hacked unnoticed, giving someone access to your databases. Whom is to blame? What about my users whose e-mails could be used for spam by evil-doers? Can I be held responsible for it? Or is that Jelsoft's business?

[hockyfan]

One is planned as far as I know, but I do not know of a timeline for it at this exact moment.Will we be notified when some sort of timeline is figured out?



h

[Rocky_BBQ]

This is only for importing from other types of boards right?
Not updrading vb2xx to vb3xx or vb3xx to vb3xx.

[Zachery]

Correct :)

[conqsoft]

So what makes you come to that conclusion?

So you are saying that allowing Jelsoft to do the imports for you, so its less of a headache for you, going to turn vb3 into a bad product.

If I had a large non-vb forum that I wanted to import, I'd welcome the help from Jelsoft to lessen the burden and get on with other aspects of running a forum.

The problem I see with having Jelsoft do the import has to do with timing. When you upgrade/convert your site, you normally want to minimize the downtime. When you can do the import yourself, you can do a few test runs on a test system to work the bugs out. Then, at a low-traffic time you can shut the site down, do the import/upgrade, and get the site back up when you're done.

Using this process, you'll have to take your site off-line, backup the data, send it to Jelsoft, then wait until your number comes up in their queue (hours? days? who knows?).

Once the process is more automated, it may be less of an issue. But, with large sites, I can see that process being a headache too.

All in all, I'm glad I installed vb2, imported into that, then upgraded to vb3. ;)

[msimonds]

okay i have been working with a possible new client for you guys. Now that you have made this change, how are you going to import a ubb.classic, since it basically has all the posts, users, and other data stored in files, not a database. He wants to purchase vb and was waiting on my word for the new import scripts.

How are you guys going to handle this one, are you going to perform the import on his server?

[Steve Machol]

UBB.Classic is one of the import services being offered. Make the request, then it's Jerry's problem to figure out. :D

http://www.vbulletin.com/members/import.php

[msimonds]

that is not a viable answer. If someone wants to move to VB and they own or have a rather large board, are you guys going to perform the database restore on their sites. With shared hosts there has been and always will be a timeout issue with phpmyadmin or other utilities, In the case of this one being a UBB classic board, I do not see any value to this. I asked his server folks to tar the files for me and one file was 80 mb and the other was 15 mb. So do you expect us or clients to upload their files to your server, then you perform the import and send the client the database. Once again if the board is large, you are going to cause database restore problems. What is a good way to get this changed. You are going to cause people and future customers from leaving your site and your product (not me of coarse :p ) .

Before I go forward and contact him about this, can you please provide a clear answer on this problem

[mOdEtWo]

I just got really dissapointed, sorry to say. It's a great feature for non-technical people who don't know how to convert from a forum software to another, but it's not good for people who know what they're doing.

What about people who can't do a database dump cause they'd run out of disk space, what about people who can't do a database backup cause of lack of ssh access, what about people who don't have enough bandwidth to transfer the sql file, what about people who can't let the database go on the other side of the firewall (as in a company with a strict policy and secret data)...

*sigh*

This should be an option, not a requirement!

The choice to convert from phpBB via vB2 sounds better to me right now. Maybe I just have to sleep on it.

*sigh*

[JohnXWA]

It's clear this is to cut piracy (shame you had to try cover up with a lame excuse, just looses some trust points) Actually you know, this is an amazing idea that will stop all piracy. Well done Jelsoft!

NO!!!

Within a few weeks I think we will see homebrew import scripts made by the pirates for users of cracked VB. I even suspect legal users will download these importers.

[Steve Machol]

Before I go forward and contact him about this, can you please provide a clear answer on this problem
Unfortunately I don't have the clear answer you want. Jerry or Kier are the only ones with this specific knowledge at this time. I was just trying to point out that Jerry believes he can handle these imports otherwise I doubt he would have put UBB.Classic on the list.

[JohnXWA]

Unfortunately I don't have the clear answer you want. Jerry or Kier are the only ones with this specific knowledge at this time. I was just trying to point out that Jerry believes he can handle these imports otherwise I doubt he would have put UBB.Classic on the list.
I suspect this idea maybe withdrawn if theres a fair bit of demand from new users.

[Shining Arcanine]

I'm going to stop recommending vBulletin to people as there is no longer a clear #1, in part due to this.

[Gladius]

I certainly don't like this whole idea. I'm pretty much running a parallel discussion with Jerry in PM (as concerning my converting from UBB.classic), but I'd like my view made public as well:

"However not having a choice in doing the conversion ourselves is, in my opinion, a bad idea. I'm a very hands-on guy and the best way to learn about something is to do it yourself. Being taken completely out of the loop when it comes to importing is unfortunate.

I'm not sure how it's going to work either. I mean, you can make a dump with php boards, but UBB.classic is flat files. I presume I'd need to tar the entire UBB directory and the cgi-bin for you, then upload it, and redownload it, and import... Talk about a major headache when I could just run the conversion scripts on our server. And this is a 100% success first time scenario! It's much more likely something in the conversion process will go wrong (a minor hack interfering, or whatever), and the whole thing will need to be repeated, God knows how often."

[AlexanderT]

Isn't UBB copyright protected and must not be redistributed in any way? Isn't the database structure part of UBB, and henceforth, part of the copyright license? Do you have Infopop's agreement to download their customer's databases to your ftp server?

[Chris Gwynne]

Not sure if this question has been asked, but I'll ask it.

What do you expect the general timeframe to be of imports? If it's a few days I can see a lot of people getting very annoyed at that considering that depending on their skill level they could have it done within the hour...

[BlueFlame]

*Is also Curious*

[Roody]

I gotta say that I tend to agree that this is a pretty bad idea. Specifically speaking for my own site I find this choice by Jelsoft to be helpful to me as I would have issues with this due to my lack of knowledge on Imports, but for those with in-depth knowledge Jelsoft has really put a paying customer in a bind, a customer that IMO might not have been one had they known what they know now.

Just a suggestion, but I think this is something Jelsoft should seriously reconsider. It's impossible to know every situation that can occur, and by making this a requirement some businesses now find themselves in a bind because of third party issues.

That is bad for everyone.

[delaen]

While I think this is a pretty bad idea to begin with, I'm more disappointed that you decided to try to trick us. We're not stupid; we know this is about piracy.

On top of inconveniencing me should I ever need this functionality, you also lost quite a bit of my trust, which is (was) the most valuable thing you had of mine.

Inconveniencing me is irritating; treating me like I'm stupid is heartbreaking.

[VampireMan]

Warning to anyone who hosts a server within the UK. Do not submit your database to jelsoft. or vBulletin.com. This procedure is illegal within the uk.

Unless you get prior written permission from all your members you would be breaking the data protection act. I am fully aware of this law and a NDA will not get anyone out of trouble if a user decides to sue.

[Hunter]

Warning to anyone who hosts a server within the UK. Do not submit your database to jelsoft. or vBulletin.com. This procedure is illegal within the uk.

Unless you get prior written permission from all your members you would be breaking the data protection act. I am fully aware of this law and a NDA will not get anyone out of trouble if a user decides to sue.

I do not live in the UK so I will not comment on the laws of that country since I am unaware of it. Due to my limited knowledge on UK law I am going to presume that what you said is true. If it is, then I would find it suprising that Jelsoft would have not looked into this considering that their company is based in the UK.

[Robbiz233]

Really this is probably a waste of time anyway because like anyone competent at php and mysql and has used vb and the other software before could put together a converter. Like i havent even used vb much before and im sure i could put one together if i wanted to.

[Ankit]

Not to mention the fact that in between the time you submit your DB to Jelsoft and the time you get it back, there could be several new posts, threads, or other changes in your forum. I don't plan on keeping my forum closed while I wait for Jelsoft to finish the import for me, that's for sure. Normally, this would be a good idea, but for something as dynamic as a forum system, it doesn't seem like a viable option. I doubt that most of us need handholding when it comes to importing. Bring back the old vB style of importing, I say.

[poolking]

Warning to anyone who hosts a server within the UK. Do not submit your database to jelsoft. or vBulletin.com. This procedure is illegal within the uk.

Unless you get prior written permission from all your members you would be breaking the data protection act. I am fully aware of this law and a NDA will not get anyone out of trouble if a user decides to sue.
Vampire Man,

I would have thought that Jelsoft would have covered this eventuality. So is there really any need for the scaremongering?

For starters I doubt they'll be keeping your databases afterwards, so as long as they are destroyed I'm sure they wont fall foul of the Data Protection Act.

Also the Databases do not contain any identifiable information i.e. address, telephone no etc, unless someone is niave enough to post them on a public forum.

I take it from your response you think this is a bad idea?

[welo]

Vampire Man,

I would have thought that Jelsoft would have covered this eventuality. So is there really any need for the scaremongering?
Easy enough to answer: Yes. Forcing conversions through Jelsoft servers as the only import option is a lawsuit waiting to happen no matter what country you're in. My board's already converted, but damn, there go any future referrals unless you amend this decision. I'm glad you guys talked about it though. G'luck.

[poolking]

Easy enough to answer: Yes. Forcing conversions through Jelsoft servers as the only import option is a lawsuit waiting to happen no matter what country you're in. My board's already converted, but damn, there go any future referrals unless you amend this decision. I'm glad you guys talked about it though. G'luck.
Yes, but once the system has been fully automated with no human intervention then these concerns should be addressed as no one else will "see" the data.

[agoldstraw]

I have a very popular and busy UBB classic board. I intended getting vBulletin all ready (waiting for the importers) and then close the board, import and bring it back up all within 2-3 hours tops. As far as I know, that would have been a viable option, running the import script on site.

You're now asking me to wait until you guys get around to this for me? Sorry, which planet are you living on?

So far I'm not very impressed with support. I asked one simple question on the "How do I?" forum. I got a very laconic explanation which assumed (wrongly) that I was utterly familiar with the software. When this solution didn't appear to work, I went back - twice - to ask for further help. On both occasions the thread was just allowed to peter out.

Given my experience so far, God knows how long it would take for me to get my upgrade data back (assuming that I'm NOT breaking the UK's Data Protection Act).

Quite apart from anything else, I suspect Jelsoft has underestimated the demand for this and you may get swamped. We'll see, I guess. I've put in a request for an import but unless and until I get some assurances and guarantees about timeframe, it may be back to trying to import into a VB2 and upgrade.

[Brad.loo]

I don't know, im ganna have to see it for myself, I got a spare ibf 1.3 up so ill submit that for convertion :)

I'll get back to everyone on how it went.

If it is going to be as automated as they say I don't think this will be much of a problem for anyone, that remains to be seen. Give it a chance, if they blow it then come back and tell them how to improve it.

[agoldstraw]

Credit where credit's due. Zachery did get back to me on my help thread and by a mixture of suggestion and intuition we got there in the end.

However, I'd still like to know how long it takes Jelsoft to perform the import process - for instance, would those of us in the UK be able to specifically request a member of support staff within European time zones to be assigned to us?

[Floris]

You can say that about everything though.

If pirates could write their own import scripts, they wouldn't have to crack vbulletin - they could write their own forum software. lol

Anyway, I am sure someone will try their best to do this - their choice, this is Jelsoft's.

[agoldstraw]

Floris,

Being as the downtime factor is obviously so crucial to those of us running commercial boards, would you consider a premium/priority service if we offered a fee? Or are we really talking only an hour or so to turn this data round?

I think if we had some idea of timescale, a lot of us would feel a lot better about this. I like your product - I want to start using it, and I think my users will like it - but I can't afford for our discussions board to be down for 24 hours while we wait for Jelsoft support.

[Wep333]

I'm suprised nobody mentions security.
Not everybody's board is filled with people chitchat.
First of all, my user base is worth a little bit of worth money. Then , they are all concerned about email privacy. Also, I'm sending you thousands of user passwords...
I'm sending it in full confidence to vB team, your code could be filled with backdoors if you were hostile - so that's not the issue.
But what if vB site gets hacked ? Isn't jerry's PC backdoored ? Beeing the center of board imports, I bet he's gonna receive some EXE in his mali real soon.
Also, you should guarantee us that you don't keep a single byte of those dumps, you should take some kind of responsibility of somethings gets stolen because of this procedure. You can't put a procedure like that in place without any kind of guarantee for webmasters.

Well I must admit I feel very unconfortable.
I feel taken in hostage.
I was waiting to perform a migration towards vB from phpbb for my board (2M posts, 35K users) but I wonder what the next surprise will be.

[Oblivion Knight]

I too, am concerned about this.
How do Jelsoft plan on importing modified databases? For example if hacks had been installed on phpBB2. I had a problem some time ago importing my UBB.classic to vB2 because I had installed several hacks on my UBB.classic. If Jelsoft had a similar problem importing to vB3, what could be done about it?

People need a clear cut answer, whether or not you provide support for hacked boards in other packages (phpBB2, Invision, UBB.classic). If not, how do you plan to enable these people to import to vB3?

[IDN]

Just for anyone that is curious. If you read page four you would see it was already answered. :)

As stated above, the process is being further automated so you can plug in the values in the form and get your converted data back in about 5 minutes.

Right now, there will be some additional downtime but this issue is being worked on.

[agoldstraw]

All very well, IDN, but that strikes me as more "jam tomorrow" stuff.

And although Jelsoft are now very keen to point out their verbal finessing in the difference between VB3 importers being "released" and "downloadable", I'm rather cynically wondering how many sales they would have lost if they had made their intentions absolutely clear.

[AlexanderT]

I'm suprised nobody mentions security.
Not everybody's board is filled with people chitchat.
First of all, my user base is worth a little bit of worth money. Then , they are all concerned about email privacy. Also, I'm sending you thousands of user passwords...
I'm sending it in full confidence to vB team, your code could be filled with backdoors if you were hostile - so that's not the issue.
But what if vB site gets hacked ? Isn't jerry's PC backdoored ?....
Well I did mention it, see here (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showpost.php?p=639765&postcount=47), but it is kinda useless to post since Jelsoft hasn't really replied back to any of our concerns. So far, we have

a) the privacy issue of our user database (it is *definitely* an issue in the UK, and so it is in Germany; and depending on your individual privacy statement, it can be also an issue: "We guarantee we don't share your information with ANYBODY")
b) the copyright issue of the forum software we are going to convert (ask Infopop what they think if you upload a database made with their software you licensed on Jelsoft's servers)
c) the problem with heavily hacked boards that do most probably not work with automated scripts before applying some fixes to them
d) the unpredicted time one has to remain offline
e) the question of who is held reliable if vB's FTP server gets hacked, database gets stolen, user information gets sold to spammers, etc.

I don't care if Jelsoft is also under a "Non-Disclosure and Non-Compete". They definitely didn't sign this with me, nor with my users, nor with their competitors whose databases they ASK US to illegally upload to them, nor with potential hackers who will have the greatest fun hacking the FTP.

Honestly, I am surprised how Jelsoft could even come up with this crazy idea!

[ffaBen]

Hmm, not good. It makes it reliant on the vb server(s), if they go down (which has been known to happen on quite a few occasions) you can't do the import.

When we imported from out UBB 6.05, we had quite a few hacks on the UBB, so I modified the import script to cater for those extra fields I wanted importing (even simply mapping the "Additional Fields" to IM Addresses).

[Fusion]

You would upload your database to the vBulletin Import Server via FTP or have the Import Server download it from a specific URL. The system would then import into vB3 and let you see the end result, if its not satisfactory you can clear the import and try again.

Though one you finalise the import and accept the result you will only be able to download that completed database.There's several privacy issues which clash with this approach. I'm quite sure you'll find many sites which would need an upgrade where the database contains sensitive information. By transferring this to a 3rd party, you wouldn't just violate that trust but also leave the data open to potentional hazards in the transfer and processing itself.
ProHacker also brought this up. Whatever NDAs/NCAs the Jelsoft staff is bound by and promises that "data won't be seen" and "data will be deleted" won't negate the fact that the database has to be released to a 3rd party. I have several customers who would refuse to use vBulletin as their forum based on the mere possibility of such a scenario.

Good product, guys, but this was a very ill-adviced choice. At the very least you should still allow the importers to be downloaded and used by "expert customers".

[Faruk]

I think people are overreacting a bit.

For one thing, hacked boards probably won't make such a big difference at all. I had a seriously hacked-up vB2, hacked to pieces, and I didn't have to do a single thing back when I upgraded that to vB3. The upgrade worked flawlessly, despite my having hacked the vB2 database majorly.

I'm pretty sure the same will go for hacked boards of other forumsoftware. Most of the time, a hack is a set of code changes and an extra column or two on the database - such things won't matter at all.


I do have one major concern with this method of doing imports, however. Some databases are 1GB or more in size, doing a dump of that and sending it over to another server can take quite a while simply because of its sheer size. How is the data being transmitted in the first place? I'm hoping it uses a secure connection for this, otherwise I'd never risk it myself (not that I personally have any non-vB boards, but just saying...)

Also, I've not yet seen any reports of people who've submitted an Import request and have it handled. Of course, it's a bit early for that, so far, but still...

[SaN-DeeP]

Nope.
i would say not a good idea. Personally.
As becoz my problems were straight :)

If a user comes how has a hacked database with addons etc. , Vb Team will refuse to upgrade or they will do it ??

My personal experience with this was bitter.
mY db wasnt IMPORTED properly at all.

You must give customers freedom to download the importers as before.
50% of them can resolve things on there own end. there will be LAST WASTE of time for both the team and customers.

Let me know ur opinions :)

If you can send me the IPB 1.3 TO VB 3.0 importer. please leave me a pm too :)
Sandy...

[Equ1n0x]

If members area access to download VB has expired, can you still order a import?

Cheers

[ffaBen]

For one thing, hacked boards probably won't make such a big difference at all. I had a seriously hacked-up vB2, hacked to pieces, and I didn't have to do a single thing back when I upgraded that to vB3. The upgrade worked flawlessly, despite my having hacked the vB2 database majorly.

I'm pretty sure the same will go for hacked boards of other forumsoftware. Most of the time, a hack is a set of code changes and an extra column or two on the database - such things won't matter at all.
Just that it won't get imported. the UBB importer ignored the fields it didn't know, and how would it be able to import "Additional Field 1" to "AIM Address" etc when someone else might have "Additional Field 1" to "Birthday" or similar. Both are easily importable with a modification to the import script.

[Faruk]

Good product, guys, but this was a very ill-adviced choice. At the very least you should still allow the importers to be downloaded and used by "expert customers".
But then what guarantee does Jelsoft have from you (you the user who downloads them) that you won't go use those import scripts and start an importing service of your own, on-site (so that people don't have to transfer their database to Jelsoft's server anymore) and charge money for it?

Hell, all competitors could start doing that, and then suddenly IPB and phpBB and all others would have these scripts that they could use themselves to boost their own product.

I could go on with that even further, but I don't think that that's really the main issue at all. Many customers of Jelsoft are not PHP/MySQL-wizards, and many potential ones aren't either. Sure, there are some, that would of course prefer to do it themselves, but one should focus on the majority of the customers.

Also, this way, doing an import is far more reliable. Jerry's an absolute genius with the whole `ImpEx` thing, from what I can tell, and whenever something goes amiss in one import, he can fix that for that one and all future ones straight away. Letting users download the scripts would prevent that to a fair extent (customer feedback is nowhere near as good as a developer spotting issues him/herself, in such cases).

I think, above all, we should just wait and see how the first import requests get handled. :)

[AlexanderT]

I'm pretty sure the same will go for hacked boards of other forumsoftware. Most of the time, a hack is a set of code changes and an extra column or two on the database - such things won't matter at all.
How should the generic import script be aware of e.g. additional columns? How should it know its meaning and properly convert it to vB3? Let's say I had a UBB board with a Karma hack, how would the generic import script know which column is used by the Karma hack and how it should be converted to work properly with the vB3 reputation system? This can only be done custommade, when I have the import script and do the necessary changes to it. And this was just one example.

I'm hoping it uses a secure connection for this, otherwise I'd never risk it myself (not that I personally have any non-vB boards, but just saying...)
A secure connection wouldn't help you at all if a hacker has already infiltrated Jelsoft's ftp server.

I have a better suggestion (sarcasm alert!).
Jelsoft becomes a hosting provider. It forces *every* customer to host its MySQL database with their servers. Not only this, Jelsoft tweaks its MySQL installation a bit and changes vB accordingly, so that pirates who haven't paid for vB and who are not hosted with Jelsoft cannot use their products. Cool, heh? And since Jelsoft has physical access to our databases, since all its employees signed some NDAs/NCAs (which, btw, are never broken in today's world), since Jelsoft's servers are hack-proof, we and our board members can feel happy and secure and live happily ever after.

[Faruk]

Just that it won't get imported. the UBB importer ignored the fields it didn't know, and how would it be able to import "Additional Field 1" to "AIM Address" etc when someone else might have "Additional Field 1" to "Birthday" or similar. Both are easily importable with a modification to the import script.
From what I can tell, you specify these things with your request, and then they get handled semi-automatically without a problem...

But like I just posted, we should await the first results :)


You must give customers freedom to download the importers as before.
50% of them can resolve things on there own end. there will be LAST WASTE of time for both the team and customers.
And just HOW did you figure out that it's 50% ? Where does it say this number? Who did the research?

As far as I can tell, you're making that number up completely, based solely on your impressions.

It's just like those people going on about how "most people using vBulletin don't use the default style anyway" or how "most vB admins hack up their boards", when Jelsoft has stated repeatedly that it's the opposite, and that most customers only change the colors and possibly the header image, and nothing else.

[Faruk]

How should the generic import script be aware of e.g. additional columns? How should it know its meaning and properly convert it to vB3? Let's say I had a UBB board with a Karma hack, how would the generic import script know which column is used by the Karma hack and how it should be converted to work properly with the vB3 reputation system? This can only be done custommade, when I have the import script and do the necessary changes to it. And this was just one example.
See my post above this one :)


A secure connection wouldn't help you at all if a hacker has already infiltrated Jelsoft's ftp server.
Yes, formidable argument. This is pointless bickering, as your database would be just as available if a hacker has infiltrated YOUR server.

Considering the fact that Jelsoft is very well aware that they're dealing with many different customers' databases here, I'm quite confident that they've made sure it's airtight, security-wise.

[AlexanderT]

I think, above all, we should just wait and see how the first import requests get handled. :)
What about privacy concerns? What about security? You merely focus on one aspect, that Jelsoft is doing a better job converting our database than most of us do (btw something I strongly disbelieve, since who knows my to-be-converted database with all its hacks better than the person who had them installed?).

[AlexanderT]

Yes, formidable argument. This is pointless bickering, as your database would be just as available if a hacker has infiltrated YOUR server...Considering the fact that Jelsoft is very well aware that they're dealing with many different customers' databases here, I'm quite confident that they've made sure it's airtight, security-wise.
So what? You forget something important:

a) if MY server gets hacked, it is solely MY problem to deal with it, and it is MY responsibility towards my users to clean the mess.

b) if Jelsoft's server gets hacked, WHO is responsible? What if sensitive data is stolen, which could financially hurt my members. Whom will they charge? They will argue that I violated the privacy statement by giving out their confidential data to a 3rd party. They will make ME pay for it, and my legal position is diminished because I violated their privacy.

c) who is Jelsoft for me to believe that their servers are "airtight, security-wise"? They may write wonderful scripts, but that doesn't mean that they know every published and unpublished exploit which could infiltrate their data services. Have you thought about the incentive many hackers would have knowing that vB has a place where customers regularly upload their databases?

Oh, did I already mentioned the privacy issue?

[ITDev]

How long does it usually take for the process to start after you file an "Import Request for phpBB2" through the "vBulletin Ticket System" from the members area?

Thanks!

[user 1-2-3]

As for me, I've decided to wait for a while. I already invest in vB software about 1000 US$ (and planned at least the same) but I will NOT buy any more, until they change this policy. It's not a big problem to keep this money frozen.

The reason, that it's about piracy is ridiculous. Those people, who can't make 160 bucks on there sites will never buy it anyway. It's not difficult to find pirated copy, but no one serious customers will take a risk for this money.

Good chance for hackers to get your databases. Jelsoft provoke them.

[Fusion]

But then what guarantee does Jelsoft have from you (you the user who downloads them) that you won't go use those import scripts and start an importing service of your own, on-site (so that people don't have to transfer their database to Jelsoft's server anymore) and charge money for it?Simply offer the download with an NDA/NCA attached. I'll gladly sign because I have no desire to compete with Jelsoft.


I could go on with that even further, but I don't think that that's really the main issue at all. Many customers of Jelsoft are not PHP/MySQL-wizards, and many potential ones aren't either. Sure, there are some, that would of course prefer to do it themselves, but one should focus on the majority of the customers.By all means, focus on the majority, but don't ignore the minority.

My point is that my line of work is such that the agreements I am bound by with regards to my customers absolutely blocks the assistance of unknown 3rd parties, be it man or machine (script). This means that any import scripts would have to be checked by me, and then run wholly in a closed environment. Anything less, and I would violate a whole range of laws, including the national variation of UK's Data Protection Act.

[Floris]

I am sure piracy is just one reason .. one of quite a few.

[Ogmuk]

Didn't we discuss the piracy issue in another thread recently? edit: here (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=97854) There are quite a few who started out with an illegal/pirated vbulletin board and then, so called, fell in love with the product and bought it, people who wouldn't have bought the product if they didn't have the chance to test the product in this way. Maybe it's a bad comparison but how many downloaded the Lord of the Rings DVD and didn't buy it, or won't buy it (part 3) because they already have the pirated version? You'll be the first I know.

But to return to this thread's topic, I too believe that this is a terrible 'solution'. Sure, the scripts bring a lot of users with problems and hate to this forum and uploading it to an automated FTP will take care of all those common problems from most of the 'newbie users', but there should always be the option to do it yourself. I can imagine that the more advanced users want to hack the script and polish it to get the best result with their hacked IPB, or whatever.

[Faruk]

Simply offer the download with an NDA/NCA attached. I'll gladly sign because I have no desire to compete with Jelsoft.
Yes, that really worked. We're not seeing any pirated vB's on the net anywhere, noooooooooooooooo...

Of course, making them available and keeping a keen eye on ALL competitors to spot as much as one line of directly derived code just so you can nail them in court sounds like a great idea for Jelsoft...


By all means, focus on the majority, but don't ignore the minority. As Steve said, if you want a special arrangement due to the nature of your data / customers / situation, contact Jelsoft Support and they'll work something out with you.

They're just not focusing on the minority, they're not ignoring it.

My point is that my line of work is such that the agreements I am bound by with regards to my customers absolutely blocks the assistance of unknown 3rd parties, be it man or machine (script). This means that any import scripts would have to be checked by me, and then run wholly in a closed environment. Anything less, and I would violate a whole range of laws, including the national variation of UK's Data Protection Act.
I've yet to see this proven. People on this site seem extremely eager to make claims about laws this laws that, so far I've seen great claims that Jelsoft wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but from the claims I see they're likely to do just fine.

[Robbiz233]

Hmm, a solution would be that you could submit your database to an automation script along with like your lincense number and code and everything and the script automatically converts it for you.

That way no wait and noone gets the script. Maybe if jelsoft were still worryed that codes could be given out you could like submit somthing to say you want to use in and a staff member would reply with a code that you can use to do it. That way you can get it done when you want it done and in a short space of time.

[Gladius]

Has anyone gone through this for a modified UBB.classic yet? I have mine waiting, but I'm not going through with this until I hear what the process actually looked like. And how long it took. I may yet believe that 5 minute claim for converting a dump of a php board, but saying the same for a flat file board like UBB.classic where every little hack or extra file could throw the importer completely off is fantasy.

[AlexanderT]

Yes, that really worked. We're not seeing any pirated vB's on the net anywhere, noooooooooooooooo...
... so you attempt to restrict piracy by restricting and violating privacy? Welcome to 1984!

As Steve said, if you want a special arrangement due to the nature of your data / customers / situation, contact Jelsoft Support and they'll work something out with you.
Hm, last time I needed priority services, Jelsoft Support's answer was very short and to the point:

From: "vBulletin Support Team" <contact@vbulletin.com>

Hello,

This requires modify the code, (i.e., 'hacks'.) We can't offer official support for code modifications or for forums running modified code. But we do have a hacking site and forums, however, with people that may be willing to help you with this.

Please visit http://www.vbulletin.org/ and ask for help there in the appropriate forum.
Jelsoft doesn't support "forums running modified code". Get it? If you have a hacked phpbb, ib, ubb, whatever-forum, you are screwed, since Jelsoft doesn't give a damn.

I've yet to see this proven. People on this site seem extremely eager to make claims about laws this laws that, so far I've seen great claims that Jelsoft wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but from the claims I see they're likely to do just fine.
Where are Jelsoft claims regarding international privacy laws? Where does Jelsoft legally justify this? How would you like to see it "proven"? By having someone being sued by one of his members for violating the latter's privacy?

[bart]

My God, after waiting two years (or was it three) they come up with something like this.

And I think we have to see the big picture here. It's the beginning of the end of the open-source where you are allowed to see and change the code (though it will - fot the time being - be denied).

It's the microsoft-way of thinking.

[Robbiz233]

your right there, if it was possable to hide the code in php when u distribute it I doubt they'd even be letting you get access to the code.

[msimonds]

I made two posts in this post yesterday, slept on this issue, and this is totally about 100% piracy. The other day I setup a test board on my site, 2.3.4, to import a future (possible, not sure now) ubb classic board. I had to upload his Tar’d cgi and ubb folders, they were massive, tar’d, and to think that you can have most imports done in “5” minutes is ludicroius. Your company is a customer service based entity and to make a decision like this without any type of “survey” from your customer base is just not good business practice. I am appalled at this decision and to have to wait after the gold release to hear of such a change really aggravates me. There are many posts in these forums that ask about the release, many of them ignored, and many of them answered, that stated that the imports will be released soon after the release of gold. There is not one mention of this new business practice. Why didn’t the jelsoft team hint at this or tell people about it when the discussions were going on about gold. I will tell you why, because they knew that it may take distract people from purchasing vb. THIS is a extremely bad decision and needs to be rethought. After busting my ass and spending an entire day working around the vb2 to ubb import scripts shoddy performance, I was able to get the import to work. I do not understand your decision.



Do you really expect me to upload an 100 MB tar’d file to your server and expect to get it back in 5 minutes, give me a break.



One more thing, why isn’t anyone from jelsoft responding to these posts!!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Fusion]

I've yet to see this proven.I have no inclination to prove this to you or anyone. I was merely pointing out the nature of my particular predicament. The exact nature of the laws involved is governed by NSAs and isn't fit to be discussed in public. You'll just have to accept that this is how it is, and I'll have to adjust my plans to use vBulletin accordingly.

Nice attempt at sarcasm, though. :)

[ESCal]

Has anyone had their IPB converted yet? I'm still waiting on a response from Jelsoft...

[AIVincent]

Has anyone had their IPB converted yet? I'm still waiting on a response from Jelsoft...
As am I.

[Roody]

Yes, but once the system has been fully automated with no human intervention then these concerns should be addressed as no one else will "see" the data.
I understand what you are saying Poolking, but you can't argue each scenario. vBulletin is used by it's share of businesses and the ballgame is different with businesses. I tend to be an avid supporter of Jelsoft, but this is a mistake in every way possible.

[Roody]

So what? You forget something important:

a) if MY server gets hacked, it is solely MY problem to deal with it, and it is MY responsibility towards my users to clean the mess.

b) if Jelsoft's server gets hacked, WHO is responsible? What if sensitive data is stolen, which could financially hurt my members. Whom will they charge? They will argue that I violated the privacy statement by giving out their confidential data to a 3rd party. They will make ME pay for it, and my legal position is diminished because I violated their privacy.

c) who is Jelsoft for me to believe that their servers are "airtight, security-wise"? They may write wonderful scripts, but that doesn't mean that they know every published and unpublished exploit which could infiltrate their data services. Have you thought about the incentive many hackers would have knowing that vB has a place where customers regularly upload their databases?

Oh, did I already mentioned the privacy issue?
Im with ya man. Its irresponsible for people to defend Jelsoft on this one because it's impossible for a person to look at every scenario. If major companies can get hacked what makes people think Jelsoft will be immune?

[Gladius]

Agreed. And aside from the Jelsoft yes-men, I don't think I've seen a single really positive comment on this in the whole thread. If Jelsoft have any sense, they'll abandon this idea. They'll lose more customers this way than they would gain from the anti-piracy aspect of this.

Btw, I've noticed that my post count throughout this thread has remained 52... is this a bug or something?

[Fusion]

Btw, I've noticed that my post count throughout this thread has remained 52... is this a bug or something?Either this sub-forum is excluded from counting posts, or the counter is updated hourly.

[The Prohacker]

Also, what about the constant attacks on vBulletin.com.. Are we going to be expected to sit back with our forums closed with a sql dump ready while we wait on vBulletin.com's servers to come back online so we can get our import done?

vBulletin's site was down for almost 18 as I remember because of a hardware/software issue made the server need to be redone..

This site has already been proven unstable because of those two instances, we do make money off our forums, thats our main income, advertising, and now we are supposed to just hope vBulletin.com is up when we need an import?

[Faruk]

Agreed. And aside from the Jelsoft yes-men, I don't think I've seen a single really positive comment on this in the whole thread. If Jelsoft have any sense, they'll abandon this idea. They'll lose more customers this way than they would gain from the anti-piracy aspect of this.

Btw, I've noticed that my post count throughout this thread has remained 52... is this a bug or something?
I think posts made in this forum don't count towards your postcount.

Not sure about the whole setup of this board, on such things.. it seems odd.


I have no inclination to prove this to you or anyone. I was merely pointing out the nature of my particular predicament. The exact nature of the laws involved is governed by NSAs and isn't fit to be discussed in public. You'll just have to accept that this is how it is, and I'll have to adjust my plans to use vBulletin accordingly.

Nice attempt at sarcasm, though. :)
Oh that's just sad.
"jelsoft will go down in court big time, but I can't tell you why or back it up with examples of the laws that will make this happen. you'll just have to believe me" :rolleyes:


... so you attempt to restrict piracy by restricting and violating privacy? Welcome to 1984! How is this restricting privacy? I can see how there would be issues with privacy agreements across various sites, but I see nothing in this that restricts it.

If you have a better suggestion for Jelsoft to offer this service without basically killing themselves off, please, go ahead and let's hear it.

Hm, last time I needed priority services, Jelsoft Support's answer was very short and to the point:

Jelsoft doesn't support "forums running modified code". Get it? If you have a hacked phpbb, ib, ubb, whatever-forum, you are screwed, since Jelsoft doesn't give a damn.
That's bullsh!t :)
If you'd have paid attention, hacked boards (UBB, phpBB, etc.) will be imported just fine, depending on your desires the importer scripts will be customized for you to make sure you lose no customized data whatsoever. So your claim that you're screwed is completely false. Furthermore, Jelsoft generally supports hacked boards just the same, however, if you've hacked up your board they can't give official support as it may have been one of your hacks that has caused your problem. They couldn't possibly begin to support that officially, but in general, if you have an issue and you have a hacked board, you'll still get answers just fine.

Where you got that answer from (that you pasted, from the vB Support system) is irrelevant as you didn't post your own question there.


Where are Jelsoft claims regarding international privacy laws? Where does Jelsoft legally justify this? How would you like to see it "proven"? By having someone being sued by one of his members for violating the latter's privacy?
For one thing, I'd like to see the laws that back up certain people's claims that Jelsoft will be "screwed in court". The past week I've seen 5-6 people make claims about Jelsoft having no chance in court on a few things, but it never went beyond just saying that. Well I can do that too. Look: "all people complaining and threatening will have no chance in court against Jelsoft, as Jelsoft never promised, by word or contract or license agreement, that you have a right to download import scripts, or even be able to import from other forumsoftware. They've gone way out of their way to provide an extremely reliable way of importing your database into vBulletin 3, but it is a service they provide, and instead of making it a self-service (which was pretty feasible in the past), they've made it a standard Jelsoft-service for vB3. That's their entire right, and you can't do *SH!T* against that as there's no chance in court for you should you take it there."

All things considered, I think my little claim there is closer to the truth than all claims made by people so far.

[JohnXWA]

The bottom line is without the support from customers I doubt this decision will stand for long. I won't be recommending VB to anyone until Jelsoft sort this out.

Jelsoft need the customers and it's pretty clear a lot of them want to import themselves. Those that don't want Jelsoft to do it will only have to wait a few weeks and we will see pirate made importers. It's not actually that hard is it now....

This does not really effect me but I have to say this is the worst idea Jelsoft has ever had. Seem intent on annoying the customers, lol.

[Jerry]

Has anyone gone through this for a modified UBB.classic yet? I have mine waiting, but I'm not going through with this until I hear what the process actually looked like. And how long it took. I may yet believe that 5 minute claim for converting a dump of a php board, but saying the same for a flat file board like UBB.classic where every little hack or extra file could throw the importer completely off is fantasy.

A 1,070,000 post ubb.classic board took 84 mins, 5 mins is the average with phpBB thats all I said.

[Dave-G]

Okay do not normally post, but decide to put my little view point on this one.

The idea of Jelsoft doing the importing for you either via their staff or an automated system is a good one, well done.
The idea that this is the "only" method is where it fails, and I think the above posts give enough reasons for this.
It would be good if the two methods were available via the members area, so customers that are unsure how things work can apply for the import/transfer, those that are happy with doing it them self can download the importer file.

After reading the complete thread I can find no valid reason why Jelsoft would restrict importing unless it was a method to reduce piracy, if this is the case lets face it, it will not work. If pirates can get hold of everything now (all software not just vb) and clean the code up so its untracable, do you think this will stop them!! I do not.

So I'd like to see the import service maintained as its good for those people needing it, but also make the importers available via members area.

Dave
(aka WeeMan on vbPortal.com)

[Faruk]

Also, what about the constant attacks on vBulletin.com.. Are we going to be expected to sit back with our forums closed with a sql dump ready while we wait on vBulletin.com's servers to come back online so we can get our import done?

vBulletin's site was down for almost 18 as I remember because of a hardware/software issue made the server need to be redone..

This site has already been proven unstable because of those two instances, we do make money off our forums, thats our main income, advertising, and now we are supposed to just hope vBulletin.com is up when we need an import?
"constant attacks" ?

I haven't noticed anything for months now, aside of the issue a few days ago with disk space being filled somehow, causing slowdowns.

[GamerZ]

let say you got a big board and your .sql file is 2gb and above, it will take ages to upload it to vbulletin.com ftp. This point so far only 2 person has mentioned before.

[Jerry]

let say you got a big board and your .sql file is 2gb and above, it will take ages to upload it to vbulletin.com ftp. This point so far only 2 person has mentioned before.

That is one thing that will need sorting and will take some scheduling with the customer, though the import server isn't vb.com.

[GamerZ]

That is one thing that will need sorting and will take some scheduling with the customer, though the import server isn't vb.com.i see, i just stating vb.com ftp as an example =)

[Faruk]

The bottom line is without the support from customers I doubt this decision will stand for long. I won't be recommending VB to anyone until Jelsoft sort this out.
Just because 50-60 people (tops, so far) are complaining, doesn't mean they don't have the support of customers. In fact, plenty of people in this thread have shown their support for Jelsoft in this, and on top of that, even 100-150 people are nothing compared to the MANY THOUSANDS of customers that Jelsoft have that will not be affected in any way by this decision.

I find it absolutely ridiculous for anyone to go "I won't be recommending vB to anyone ..." over this - most people don't need the importers, vBulletin 3 is still the best forum software available, most reliable one, and you're gonna tell people to settle for something less just because they do this with Importers? That really makes no sense whatsoever, and is just an act of spite if you ask me...


Jelsoft need the customers and it's pretty clear a lot of them want to import themselves. Those that don't want Jelsoft to do it will only have to wait a few weeks and we will see pirate made importers. It's not actually that hard is it now....
Jelsoft needs customers -> yup
A lot of them want to import themselves -> also true
However, these people are not even 1% of Jelsoft's customer base.
Also: "it's not actually that hard is it now" -> actually, it is that hard. Writing good importer scripts is complicated, challenging and difficult. Also, I wouldn't trust a pirate-made importer at all. After all, pirates are the least reliable people, generally speaking, so if you're concerned about things like privacy and security, Jelsoft's a much better bet than some pirate-made script. For all you know, their script actually sends the author data from your database!

This does not really effect me but I have to say this is the worst idea Jelsoft has ever had. Seem intent on annoying the customers, lol.[/QUOTE]

[Roody]

Just because 50-60 people (tops, so far) are complaining, doesn't mean they don't have the support of customers. In fact, plenty of people in this thread have shown their support for Jelsoft in this, and on top of that, even 100-150 people are nothing compared to the MANY THOUSANDS of customers that Jelsoft have that will not be affected in any way by this decision.

With all due respect Faruk I hope Jelsoft doesn't have your attitude because making a move like this and forcing customers who will deal with confidentiality and third party issues is a serious concern for even 1 customer. One business alone that faces this issue is cause enough to make this an option and not a requirement.

Personally speaking I love this feature for myself, but as a Systems Admin guy at my job if this was an issue I would despise this move with good cause. That is why I have repeatedly said on here it's impossible to defend this move because each situation is different and in the instance of a business just one situation that causes a business financial/security/third party issues is 1 to many.

[Jerry]

I've seen 5 mins being stated a few times, obviously its a case of how long is a piece of string, big board = longer time than a shorter board, good coding can help but its not going to change the fundementals of doing more work, though doing it like this puts a lot more empahsis on us to ensure they are as efficent as possiable to we can do more with less load on the machine.

A few other things that have been stated about "waiting for feedback" and "Yea right, I'm going to wait days for vB staff to do it" etc.
At the moment scheduling at feed back for timings and arranging imports it a bit ad hoc as I'm doing them on a request basis and first come first serve etc, though that is only for right now and untill we get the import server finished that will take care of 99.9% of the work and feedback, status etc.

Lastly, piracy. It was a part of the descion but not the sole or main reason and it definatly was not decided "just" to annoy customers.

[cirisme]

But then what guarantee does Jelsoft have from you (you the user who downloads them) that you won't go use those import scripts and start an importing service of your own, on-site (so that people don't have to transfer their database to Jelsoft's server anymore) and charge money for it?
What guarantee does Jelsoft have that I won't download vBulletin, modify a couple lines, and then sell it as my own product? I don't necessarily disagree with your conclusion... but I do disagree with how you arrived there. :)

[Jerry]

Moving data.

The ftp/sql/scp of the data will be directly server to server, it won't involve downloading a mysqldump of your database down a home line connection and then back up to the import server, dynamic secure ftp accounts for instance is one facility that will be available to put the source data on the import server, then retrieve it from there.

Just though I'd state that incase anyone was a little confused.

[wential]

Corporate and Government forums will not allow their data to be accessible by Jelsoft regardless of their good intentions. I host many of their Forums with Invision 1.3 Final. Now the possibility of converting to VBulletin is gone if we can't import ourselves.

[Roody]

Corporate and Government forums will not allow their data to be accessible by Jelsoft regardless of their good intentions. I host many of their Forums with Invision 1.3 Final. Now the possibility of converting to VBulletin is gone if we can't import ourselves.
Exactly and telling someone that they are a small minority compared to the amount of current customers is ridiculous.

[msimonds]

So you say that the a UBB board imported with so many posts in 84 minutes.


Do you expect the clients to upload there boards to a designated server?
How are you going to minimize their current forums downtime?
Why was this descision made without consulting the Paid members of your company?
Are you going to perform the restore of the new database on the server in question?
What about the usual timeout issues with phpmyadmin, most shared hosts do not give out access to ssh!
What is the turn around time and how do we know that you will perform the imports without any problems?
Sincerely,
Mike
SportsRant.com

[Fusion]

Oh that's just sad.
"jelsoft will go down in court big time, but I can't tell you why or back it up with examples of the laws that will make this happen. you'll just have to believe me" :rolleyes:Uh... Maybe you should re-read my posts a tad more carefully before you quote me and start to spout off some nonsense.

I never threathened Jelsoft with legal action, I did however point out that I would be held accountable should I use such an upgrade-service with the database from such a client.

Now, if you can't get your facts straight, kindly refrain from sharing such well-thought gems in the future.

Thanks ever so much.

[Faruk]

With all due respect Faruk I hope Jelsoft doesn't have your attitude because making a move like this and forcing customers who will deal with confidentiality and third party issues is a serious concern for even 1 customer. One business alone that faces this issue is cause enough to make this an option and not a requirement.

Personally speaking I love this feature for myself, but as a Systems Admin guy at my job if this was an issue I would despise this move with good cause. That is why I have repeatedly said on here it's impossible to defend this move because each situation is different and in the instance of a business just one situation that causes a business financial/security/third party issues is 1 to many.
I think you're all overreacting big time. It's not such a big deal, really, it's import scripts. Nothing of vBulletin relies on this aspect, it's an additional service that Jelsoft has lifted to a level far beyond its competitors, and they just want to maintain that edge (amongst other reasons). All good to me, I prefer it that way. like i said, better than putting themselves out of the playing field.

[Fusion]

Corporate and Government forums will not allow their data to be accessible by Jelsoft regardless of their good intentions. I host many of their Forums with Invision 1.3 Final. Now the possibility of converting to VBulletin is gone if we can't import ourselves.My point exactly.

[Faruk]

Uh... Maybe you should re-read my posts a tad more carefully before you quote me and start to spout off some nonsense.

I never threathened Jelsoft with legal action, I did however point out that I would be held accountable should I use such an upgrade-service with the database from such a client.

Now, if you can't get your facts straight, kindly refrain from sharing such well-thought gems in the future.

Thanks ever so much.

Wow, way to be uptight. I was commenting on the people who were making such claims, I didn't say you were one of them.

And way to have a civil attitude in a perfectly good discussion. :p

[Jerry]

So you say that the a UBB board imported with so many posts in 84 minutes.

I don't quite understand but yes, that is the time it took to do just the import.

Do you expect the clients to upload there boards to a designated server?

The scripts aren't going to be put on a customers server, so yes push them to a server or make them available for pull.

How are you going to minimize their current forums downtime?

Scheduling.

Why was this descision made without consulting the Paid members of your company?

It was not, not every member of Jelsoft was present but it was discussed in person with most and online with nearly all I believe. Do you mean community members opposed to company members ?

Are you going to perform the restore of the new database on the server in question?

This will depend on the customer, what state or stage the vB3 board is at, there is no yes/no answer for that question.

What about the usual timeout issues with phpmyadmin, most shared hosts do not give out access to ssh!

I take it you mean for dumping the dB and uploading it opposed to moving information around using ftp for instance ?

What is the turn around time and how do we know that you will perform the imports without any problems?

At the moment its a little ad hoc as I'm doing the imports as well as finishing the machine that will provide the service. Though the new system keeps timings of all its actions to an average can be taken. i.e. after importing more than 10,000,000 posts from board X you get an idea of what the average is for all elements of the board as well so the system can predict how long it will take to import a board. That combined with scheduling is the answer.

[Fusion]

Wow, way to be uptight. I was commenting on the people who were making such claims, I didn't say you were one of them.I believe you did exactly that when you included my quote in this post:
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showpost.php?p=640278&postcount=115

Perhaps you think our attention-span is as bad as your own?

[Faruk]

I believe you did exactly that when you included my quote in this post:
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showpost.php?p=640278&postcount=115

Perhaps you think our attention-span is as bad as your own?
I think you simply misunderstood me there. I wasn't saying that directly to you, I was deriving my comment off on your comment, not so much to be addressing you but because I didn't feel like tracing through the thread and quoting 5 different people for one and the same comment. Adding 5 quotes in line to reply to when I can just reply to the last of them made on the issue is a waste of effort, to me. Sorry if you misunderstood that as me addressing you personally, and responding on what you said exactly, but it was a comment meant for the general issue of people making claims without backing them up with anything.

[Fusion]

I think you simply misunderstood me there. I wasn't saying that directly to you, I was deriving my comment off on your comment, not so much to be addressing you but because I didn't feel like tracing through the thread and quoting 5 different people for one and the same comment. Adding 5 quotes in line to reply to when I can just reply to the last of them made on the issue is a waste of effort, to me. Sorry if you misunderstood that as me addressing you personally, and responding on what you said exactly, but it was a comment meant for the general issue of people making claims without backing them up with anything.
Pwehaps you should take the time to be more eloquent. If it's based on a zillion similar posts, then say so. I can only speak for myself, and while it may seem like I make "baseless claims", unfortunately that's just something people will have to continue to believe if they choose to do so.

How people percieve me is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. If this decision stands, I cannot continue to suggest vBulletin as an option for my clients, and that makes me genuinely sad, as this software is by far the best in its genre.

[Faruk]

How people percieve me is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. If this decision stands, I cannot continue to suggest vBulletin as an option for my clients, and that makes me genuinely sad, as this software is by far the best in its genre.
(okay I'm responding to you directly now, ok? ;))

I really don't see the point of that. If you suggest clients to use vBulletin, this whole decision isn't an issue (unless they already have a forum on another software). After all, if they start using vBulletin, there is no need for Importing.

Or are you always recommending vBulletin to clients that already have a forum (of a different type) ?

In which case, I suggest you should check with Jelsoft directly on what the possibilities are in this. It's worth the effort, for vB3 (imo).

[bart]

The real problem at hand is that code is being made unavailable to the customers. The reasons why are not important. The way it's done neither. I think that's a major strategy-change. The only logical next step would be to make more of the code unavailable (for whatever other reasons), and so on.

For me the abillity to hack every inch of vb is it's greatest feature. It means that I don't have to write my own bulletin-board but can make a difference. This strategy-change makes me aware of the fact that this may not be possible for times to come. Starting now with the importers. Going to a next phase with the vb-cms and to a next with vb4 or 5.

So if piracy is not the main issue. What is?

[spence]

It seems one of the issues regarding this policy ("service") is the perception of its potential for exploitation of the database info.
Please note that I use the phrase "perception of its potential" as this is the crux of the issue that will prevent some from utilizing this service. And since there is no alternative method for conversion will exclude the conversion possibility for many who might otherwise wish to do so.

MY POINT:
Jelsoft might not exploit any information they garner from a database. It might also be impossible for Jelsoft to exploit any information they garner from said database. However, many corporations and government entities simply will not allow their database to be subjected to what they "perceive" to be a potential for exploitation.

Sadly, cyberspace has become a war zone in many ways and "trust" is simply not a good enough assurance to ease the minds of those to whom security and privacy issues are paramount.

[Fusion]

Or are you always recommending vBulletin to clients that already have a forum (of a different type) ?

In which case, I suggest you should check with Jelsoft directly on what the possibilities are in this. It's worth the effort, for vB3 (imo).Yes, they all have forums of some shape and form (some even still run DOS-based ones). However, contacting Jelsoft in the case of each and every situation won't make much difference. These are, among others,government and state forums, so unless their import is carried out in the fashion I already demonstrated in my earlier post, an import is out of the question.

I could ask them to start fresh with vBulletin and try to sell the benefits of this software compared to the loss of their entire existing forums, but I don't expect many, if any, to accept that as a viable option.

[Fusion]

The real problem at hand is that code is being made unavailable to the customers. The reasons why are not important. The way it's done neither. I think that's a major strategy-change. The only logical next step would be to make more of the code unavailable (for whatever other reasons), and so on.Thanks Bart.
This is also a point of concern, as many plan on long-term use, and this shift does not exactly inspire confidence in the software remaining a detatched entity. I've had clients who never used forums before discard other comparable packages simply because of the way that software tied in with some central server or other.

Sure, there are ways to circumvent that, like there's ways to cripple vBulletin in a similar fashion, but the suggestion remains.

[Kier]

The real problem at hand is that code is being made unavailable to the customers. The reasons why are not important. The way it's done neither. I think that's a major strategy-change. The only logical next step would be to make more of the code unavailable (for whatever other reasons), and so on.

For me the abillity to hack every inch of vb is it's greatest feature. It means that I don't have to write my own bulletin-board but can make a difference. This strategy-change makes me aware of the fact that this may not be possible for times to come. Starting now with the importers. Going to a next phase with the vb-cms and to a next with vb4 or 5.

So if piracy is not the main issue. What is?Piracy is a concern, but as Jerry has said, it is not the primary reason here.

The decision to not release the new import system for customers to download is a special case, and in no way sets a precedent for future Jelsoft products. The CMS and the vBulletin core code will be available for customers to download and install on their servers as has always been the case.

[ESCal]

Never mind the reasons... how long shoud it take after requesting a conversion before we're contacted?

[bart]

Piracy is a concern, but as Jerry has said, it is not the primary reason here.

The decision to not release the new import system for customers to download is a special case, and in no way sets a precedent for future Jelsoft products. The CMS and the vBulletin core code will be available for customers to download and install on their servers as has always been the case.
Your answer is exactly the problem. Somehow the importers are a 'special case'. And I can think of others aspects of vb that may be considered a 'special case'. Now, or in the future. Once you cross a bridge...

And furthermore, only anti-piracy can explain the fact that i am not allowed to see the importer-code. If there's another reason for that, please fill me in.

Just don't go overboard on those anti-piracy-things. You are already doing a lot. They will always be out there. And they do play a role in advertising this board to the vast majority of people who are willing to pay for your work.

[Jerry]

Never mind the reasons... how long shoud it take after requesting a conversion before we're contacted?

Should be very quick, I'm going through them now.

Though good point, should have a bit of info about response times.

[Faruk]

Your answer is exactly the problem. Somehow the importers are a 'special case'. And I can think of others aspects of vb that may be considered a 'special case'. Now, or in the future. Once you cross a bridge...
They already made it clear, they won't see any other aspects of vBulletin (or of the other Jelsoft products) as "a special case". If you don't believe them, there really isn't anything that anyone can do or say to help you.

I've yet to see Jelsoft break a promise (other than release dates ;)) for the first time.

[Fusion]

Contradicted yourself in three sentences? Almost a record there, Faruk. ;)
Personally, I'm still waiting for the detailed explanation why this was such a special case, and the real cause of the policy change.

[CreedFeed]

The major concern with this new policy regarding importing boards is privacy. Users have voiced their opinion regarding privacy and Jelsoft has not really answered these concerns. What are we to do if our own site has a privacy policy that states we will not release any information to any third party? By uploading my database to your server, I violate my own privacy policy, irregardless of the fact that your company has NDA's. That makes no difference to me. So are those individuals who have such a policy with their members simply not allowed to import their forum software to yours? I see that as being a major problem on your end. I, as many others have said, will not be recommending vBulletin to potential / future clients for this fact. If the client has other forum software running, I will have to recommend other forum software simply for the fact that I do not want to violate my own or their own privacy policy.

[ITDev]

Jerry: We are in contact through the "vBulletin Ticket System" but I would appreciate if you could plese tell me where on that schedule that youve mentioned am I located? A timeframe maybe? Thanks ;)

PS: Faruk - unless you are their advocate, Id appreciate if you would please tune down a bit. Nothing personal, but moving through all those trivial, yes-sir posts of yours in order to find some usefull info is a bit too much. Peace ;)

Regards, ITDev

[spence]

"Services" are optional. "Policies" are mandatory. Usually, when a company adopts a policy that will cost them potential customers and revenue they do so reluctantly. And with a firm rationale to support their action.

Could you clarify, please, your rationale for this policy?

[Roody]

I think you're all overreacting big time. It's not such a big deal, really, it's import scripts. Nothing of vBulletin relies on this aspect, it's an additional service that Jelsoft has lifted to a level far beyond its competitors, and they just want to maintain that edge (amongst other reasons). All good to me, I prefer it that way. like i said, better than putting themselves out of the playing field.It's only overreaction to you Faruk. For someone else it's an entirely different matter. By making this option an option Jelsoft ensures they offer a service that will work for all their customers and not just a certain percentage. When they make it a requirement as they have just done well..the last 11 pages speaks for themselves.

[magnus]

Or, you can just bypass the whole monster by importing to vB2 then from vB2 to vB3. Extra work? Sure. But it's quite possibly better than the alternative..

Give it time, there will be 3rd party importers available.. once that happens, Jelsoft will cave and dump this asinine idea.

[Faruk]

Contradicted yourself in three sentences? Almost a record there, Faruk. ;)
Personally, I'm still waiting for the detailed explanation why this was such a special case, and the real cause of the policy change.
How am I contradicting myself, exactly? :p

[Faruk]

It's only overreaction to you Faruk. For someone else it's an entirely different matter. By making this option an option Jelsoft ensures they offer a service that will work for all their customers and not just a certain percentage. When they make it a requirement as they have just done well..the last 11 pages speaks for themselves.
When will people learn not to use "xx pages" as an indication? It's so bad, as this thread is only 4 pages for me, so it makes you look silly and that undermines your credibility ;)

:D

Seriously though; there will always be concerns. Any business decision generally comes with a few unhappy people speaking up. Jelsoft need to protect their own interests, however, and making it an option, which means publishing the scripts for free (or even non-free) download, is doing the opposite, from what I can gather.

[Roody]

There is nothing wrong with my credibility. My point is extremely valid Faruk. I hear what you are saying and I understand it, but it doesn't stop the fact several here find themselves in a bind due to this decision by Jelsoft.

[tgmorris]

Or, you can just bypass the whole monster by importing to vB2 then from vB2 to vB3. Extra work? Sure. But it's quite possibly better than the alternative..

Give it time, there will be 3rd party importers available.. once that happens, Jelsoft will cave and dump this asinine idea.While that does work it won't preserve any message threading (if it exists) from the original db. However for linear boards that would be fine.

In my case I modified an existing importer that worked with WebBBS and vb2 to work with WebBBS 5.12 and vb3. This way I was able to preserve all of the thread structure during the conversion process. Something I would have lost going to vb2 -> vb3.

[Fusion]

Or, you can just bypass the whole monster by importing to vB2 then from vB2 to vB3. Extra work? Sure. But it's quite possibly better than the alternative..

Give it time, there will be 3rd party importers available.. once that happens, Jelsoft will cave and dump this asinine idea.vBulletin 2.x won't be available to new customers indefinately.
Returning to my own predicament, I could use my own archived copy of vB2 and solve it all by importing the databases and then upgrading it to vBulletin 3. If I did that I would violate the licence agreement (even if I called it my test-forum), but more importantly, I'd be sending a loud message that Jelsoft makes it next to impossible for new customers with special needs to use their software.

Yes, I can contact Jelsoft and ask nicely on behalf of each client to be exempted from this requirement, but really, knowing these clients most would frown on the idea that not all portions of the package was included from the start.

[MrNase]

sounds cool to me :)

I hope i'll never need that service though ;)

[magnus]

vBulletin 2.x won't be available to new customers indefinately.
Returning to my own predicament, I could use my own archived copy of vB2 and solve it all by importing the databases and then upgrading it to vBulletin 3. If I did that I would violate the licence agreement (even if I called it my test-forum), but more importantly, I'd be sending a loud message that Jelsoft makes it next to impossible for new customers with special needs to use their software.

Desperate times call for desperate measures. This loosely resembles the whole Microsoft XP-Series scenario, last I checked, people weren't to pleased with that arrangement.

I'm just curious what Jelsoft is going to do when the third-party importers are released. Are they going to ban them from vBulletin-affiliated sites? Are they going to attempt to sic their corporate lawyers on these individuals? Far fetched? Sure.. but after the vBHosting fiasco, who knows anymore..

Microsoft, RIAA.. now Jelsoft? Hey, you've got to start somewhere.. right? /sigh

[AlexanderT]

That's bullsh!t... So your claim that you're screwed is completely false... Where you got that answer from (that you pasted, from the vB Support system) is irrelevant as you didn't post your own question there... For one thing, I'd like to see the laws that back up certain people's claims that Jelsoft will be "screwed in court"...That's their entire right, and you can't do *SH!T* against that as there's no chance in court for you should you take it there.
I am just glad that you are not Jelsoft, because with your attitude Jelsoft would be RIP by now. Now, there is an option (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=7684) I've never tried before with vB3, but I am sure it can be useful here.

[KimmiKat]

It simply looks like another way to nickle and dime the customers. :( Reason I dumped IPB was their nickle and diming routine...

[Jerry]

It simply looks like another way to nickle and dime the customers. :( Reason I dumped IPB was their nickle and diming routine...

Does that mean charge for it ? We're not doing that at all.

[KimmiKat]

I think a lot of members may do that.

I'm going to stop recommending vBulletin to people as there is no longer a clear #1, in part due to this.

[BlackxRam]

Ill put a little word in.

This will prolly increase downtime rather than make it faster. My SQL on my site is almost 700MB. It takes a good hour to back that up. Then waiting for an appointment to get an import.. then having to download the file again.. If its a HUGE IMport.. it could well over 1000MB by that time. Then REUPLOADING it my server and importing it to the forum which at 500MB took almost 4 hours to complete. its rough.

I hate to add more fuel to the fire, but i do disagree with it. Its really hard to keep things safe on the internet, i know. In regards to piracy and what not. But even if volunteer coders create an import they do it as a service to their fellow owners. vb.org is a life saver most of the time.

I import alot of forums all the time from many places. The sucess beyond that is only made with the speed inwhich it can be done. As soon a member downloads a VB package its immediately at risk.. I dont think there is a way around it... you just gotta swallow it down like so many other companies do when they release a DEMO online of ANY Product.

[Chris Gwynne]

Nice growing thread, since yesterday.

Firstly, Faruk, yes tone it down please. I'm not sure whether you want to be next on the vBulletin Team, I assume you do for many reasons, but from this thread you seem to be Jelsoft's little puppet, how much are they paying you? :rolleyes:

It does seem that piracy is one of the major factors with this radical decision. There's no logical reason why Jelsoft should feel the need to remove importers from paying customers. You're taking them away from us, so that must give you sufficient reason to have doubt in your customers that we won't pass them on to other people. Nice, a company not trusting their customers.

I agree with many who voice their concerns about privacy of their boards. Why should we have to violate our users' privacy so you can conquer piracy. You and we are breaking exactly how many acts when we give you our privatized restricted data contained with a database?
Depending on the type of board you owned, information contained within the database could be very confidential and there's absolutely no way that I'd even trust a well established company like Jelsoft to possible rummage through the contents.

Also, my question posed yesterday still hasn't been answered I don't think. What exactly is the time frame from submitting a request to you actually importing the forum? This doesn't mean how long the import process takes, this is how long before a submit to the start of the process? I find it very hard to believe you'd offer 24/7 support with this import service seeing as it seems that only Jerry is handling it at the moment? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Depending on this time frame there's potentially for a large downtime on customers boards', ranging from 30 minutes to well over a few hours I'd say. Why would customers do this when they could easily have it covered themselves straight away?

As Fusion said previously, what's stopping people from using the Importers of old and doing it themselves? Are we then breaking some clause you have in the agreement?

Lastly, I haven't seen much of a response from Jelsoft themselves, more of a single backhanded comment to a users long worded discussion on the matter.

[delaen]

Nice, a compa