Why does Netscape suck so bad?

[Jake Bunce]

It seems to me that Netscape kinda sucks.

[thetakerfan]

yes, NS does suck, but SOME of the probs can be blamed on the webmaster. If your code isn't exactly right(especially tables), it won't work right in NS. Other than that, its all NS' fault. It doesn't allow all kinds of things that IE does, and forces webmasters to take on necessary work arounds just to make the page look descent, don't ever try using CSS for NS

[Paulie]

It has been my experience that...
Netscape wants properly coded html... especially 6.0;
unescaped tags, improperly nested tags and tables, and improperly written style sheets all cause problems with Netscape. Netscape 6.0 is very fussy; and VBulletin may/does not function properly with Netscape 6.0, that is unless you fix all the little html faux paus, including the style sheet implementation.. based on how you have changed the templates... your pages must be in line with specific DTDs... time to start validating your pages and style sheets. This is what I have experienced, your results may be different :)

[Kier]

If I had a some money for every time I screamed 'god damn i hate you netscape' at my monitor i would probably be in a position to pay someone else to code pages for the god awful thing...

And as for NS6... what a complete farce. I have never seen such a cobbled-together layout engine as Gecko, it really is satan's gift to web developers.

god damn i hate you netscape!!!!

[SonnetCelestial]

:rolls eyes:

don't get me started! ;)

[Zecherieh]

I love Netscape - what else can keep me up all hours of the night reworking a perfectly good webpage that works just fine on my computer

Until I pull up that other browser sitting in the corner collecting dust

[Sharg]

With Netscape, I loose 1/3 of my time trying to have things look as they SHOULD.
I hate it.

[thetakerfan]

I don't understand why people still use it
unless you have to, I see no reason to use NS

[Zecherieh]

Originally posted by thetakerfan
I don't understand why people still use it
unless you have to, I see no reason to use NS


Good question, I have a couple of regs at my forum that use it, and for the life of me I do not understand - I even have told them that things will appear better on the board and the site in IE - but they persist and keep using their garbage browser

[Sharg]

I know why.
People love to feel martyrs.

[Dark_Wizard]

I don't even bother to make my site NS compliant anymore....not worth the extra work. I also monitor my stats and see that 99% of all the visits are from IE users...the rest can jump on the bandwagon or go somewhere else!

[thetakerfan]

when I code the site, I try not to do anything that i know NS won't support properly, but I don't go out of my way to make it look good in NS, not anymore
Its definately not worth the time and effort

The only reason I've ever come up with is that IE crashes too often, but its still a better browser. I mean, its MS, so can we really expect it not to crash?

[Sharg]

The only reason I've ever come up with is that IE crashes too often

By using my browser at least 7 hours a day at minimum.... it NEVER crashes. Never. Or at least on some very very rare occasion when visiting some javascript intensive sites.
Its Iexplorer of course, and I often have 5-8 browser window opened.

[PeF]

Yesterday IE crashed me the first time on a site full of javascript. I've never experienced any problems with IE.

I think yesterday was released Netscape 6.01. I dunno what changes are included but I suppose they won't be so significiant to change browser or even better to finally say "hurray, they did something for webmasters, at last". :)

[thetakerfan]

me IE freezes all the time, on all of my computers

[version2]

Because Micro$oft is EVIL!! God. Yoy know...i am an opensource developer and a supporter of the Linux Generation (hehe) but I think people that dont use IE just because it is a Micro$oft product are...well...

EVIL!!!

;)

[dwh]

ie crashes on me all the time but still prefer to netscape. But I know a lot of people who use it out of hatred to Microsoft which I can't blame them for.

[Freddie Bingham]

FWIW I can not remember the last time IE has crashed on me but then I only use the best hardware in my computer.

[Mitrofan]

Originally posted by Dark_Wizard
I don't even bother to make my site NS compliant anymore....not worth the extra work. I also monitor my stats and see that 99% of all the visits are from IE users...the rest can jump on the bandwagon or go somewhere else!

That's the right attitude.

Don't waist your time reworking your code for Netscape. If for some reason your HTML looks ugly in Netscape - just leave it the way it is. If every webmaster would adapt this attitude, people who use Netscape would switch to Explorer in an instant. either that or keep looking at ugly looking pages.

I started ignoring netscape ugliness a long time ago.

I thought that Netscape will not develop new versions anymore, and that from now on it will be AOL browser. Hope they will fix the problems

[version2]

Originally posted by Mitrofan

Hope they will fix the problems

Dont count on it.

[damicatz]

For the people who say they can't use IE because they are using Linux you can run IE under Linux. It's not as mcuh of a "Part of the operating system" as Microsoft says. You can run it under the Windows Emulator. I've seen screen shots of it running under Linux on this page which I can't remember the address of right now.

[SonnetCelestial]

I already know 10+ people who will refuse to surf ie ONLY sites. They argue it's force-feeding them something them don't want to eat. Although Netscape 6 might not be everyone's favorite dish, a lot of people including myself still use netscape 4.75 as their primary browser. It's only because frontpagers/Netscape-haters refuse to write for the other browsers that i had to pull out IE. What this shows to me is simply an unsurmisable hatred/disdain for compliance coding that leads to quite a few people turning down what really is a wonderful web site.

Let me ask you this, how would you feel if 90% of the web sites out there were ONLY netscape compliant? Don't laugh it has happened! If you were surfing around 7-8 years ago and remember aol's hottest phase there was something called IE3. The most horrible of browsers it was integrated into aol's shell and people like myself spent a night downloading netscape simply because i couldn't STAND that browser. 90% of the surfers then were using netscape and as an ie fan you couldn't avoid ie incompatibilities because 90% of the sites were made for netscapers ONLY. Most of the people back then couldn't understand why that minority stuck to IE and didn't care or code the incompatibilities. But later on this caught up to them and now roles have reversed. I am in that era obviously so myself and the majority of my friends have a very different viewpoint of Netscape than a lot of users out there.

No matter how STUPID you think your users are for using what they use, there is one thing you have to remember, you're trying to communicate a message. Browsers are merely the portal for communication and if you WANT your users to see your message you should reconsider compatibility. Who knows, maybe someday a new awesome wham bam browser takes over the net and your beloved ie is no longer the public favorite anymore. What will you do then?

If you really prefer IE over netscape, just consider making a plain jane netscape compliant version so that they can at least view your web page/forum. It's really the nice thing to do and it won't take that much more of your time.

And to be fair both browsers have their faults. (this list IS subjective since you may find the interface for ie awesome)

Netscape is pretty freaky with stylesheets, tables and also has a very annoying memory allocation problem which has yet to be resolved (show me netscape 6, I'll show you the door! ;) ) However it is fairly nice at rendering colors, has an uncanny knack at javascript, has a nicer history window, and imho actually tries to maintain the font size and the text in the text boxes.

IE is quite bad at javascript, has a "feature" of erasing text in form fields if I mistype my password then press the back button, resets the font to smallest whenever I start it up, has a useless history window I've ever used, and also hangs my system. BUT It is VERY forgiving of code, loves frontpage html (hmm...wonder why), is great at tables/stylesheets, and is quite zippy at displaying web pages. I'm sure you can think of much more.

I noticed this board is biased to ie because I believe vb was never really meant for netscape (although it wouldn't be wise to lose the netscapers out there). It's obviously not the coders' faults since vb2 is quite excellent and does work wonders in IE. All I hope for is that coders can be given some tips as to how to make our tables netscape compliant for those of us who chooses to do so. I'm willing to put forth the extra day or two to make my site viewable to all. It's really like being forced to use something you really don't like.

*inserts 2 cents*

Originally posted by Mitrofan


That's the right attitude.

Don't waist your time reworking your code for Netscape. If for some reason your HTML looks ugly in Netscape - just leave it the way it is. If every webmaster would adapt this attitude, people who use Netscape would switch to Explorer in an instant. either that or keep looking at ugly looking pages.

I started ignoring netscape ugliness a long time ago.

I thought that Netscape will not develop new versions anymore, and that from now on it will be AOL browser. Hope they will fix the problems

[Sharg]

Let me ask you this, how would you feel if 90% of the web sites out there were ONLY netscape compliant?

You try to create a fake debate here.
If everyone uses IE is not because they don't like netscape or love microsoft, its because IE is better.
Simple as that.

If 90% of netscape users have turned to IE, its simply because IE became better than netscape. All the users would have stick to netscape if this browser would have able to keep up. Users that don't use IE and could, are just idiots and love to feel themselves Internet martyres.

Netscape is so horrible. The last problem I discovered: when you resize your browser, this LAME netscape go and charge an old outdated version of the page you are viewing !! Just by resizing your netscape browser window, its unbelievable. Not only it does take time to resize a browser with lots of tables, but it loads outdated data !! As of netscape 6, I simply gave up making my site complient to it. It just create completely irrational, RANDOM display problems I can't afford to loose my time on. (problems that don't occur in 4.7, which I consider better than the disastrous 6.0)

Beside this, I think you are right about making site netscape 4.x at least compliant. 15 % of my users uses this browser. So what I ALWAYS do is view my site in IE 5, netscape 4.7, and opéra.

Always. Yes I loose 1/4 of my time (25%) for 15 % of my users. And I hate to do it. But I do it. And its true that vb is quite netscape unfriendly. I've spent countless time correcting problems with collspans, styles .... so they would display correctly on netsape.

What people don't realize is that the Internet would be far far more rich and advanced (web browser speaking) if Microsoft would just not wait for the wc3 to adapt and for those lame browsers to follow.

I'm thinking however, to completely stop making my sites netscape complient.
I have another browser (opera) that respect w3standard and that always display my code correctly, or at least almost as good than with IE. Thats 2 browser telling me my code displays correctly, agains 1 (netscape). So why bother ?

[SonnetCelestial]

Sorry this is long winded! I type and think a lot.

I'm actually using part of history to prove a point, Sharg.

7-8 years ago netscape WAS the dominant browser. Statistics from a magazine-site rated it to be used at a very high percentage. If not 90 then around 85 (70 at the smallest). Point is, netscape has the potential to become the in thing once again (though I believe 6.0 is currently too resource hoggish and clunky to cater to the majority right now).

I'm not trying to win you over or force you to agree since that is foolish and rude. I know the problems and the pain you have to go through to make vb compatible but the net's not all about vb (well at least some of the web isn't. ;) ). I know you just want your viewers to "see the light" but I feel frustrated folks like yourself will simply regard a netscape user as an anti-microsoft linux freak not someone competent enough to CHOSE Netscape over IE because of valid, human reasons. If you still believe the majority of us needs to be enlightened and move on to "newer" better things then let me say that a lot of us don't regard IE as "the better thing" just like some of you would rather give away your first born than use Netscape.

BTW I won't give percentages from my site because your figures along with mine are biased since we provide and different content to very different people. The majority of my users on my old beta vb happened to be netscapers simply because they were around my age and also liked my coding. To be told that the forum worked equally well on BOTH browsers was the icing on the cake.

Yea, Netscape is definitely vb's greatest menace, I will not argue with that. But don't let this alone make you believe their users are all crazy, anti-microsoft freaks using Linux. It's one of the net's greatest urban legends and one this old netscaper has to get used to, I'm afraid. :/ (btw I'm using win98SE and have yet to install redhat)

[Sharg]

Point is, netscape has the potential to become the in thing once again (though I believe 6.0 is currently too resource hoggish and clunky to cater to the majority right now).

Why does it takes them so much time ? Why their latest version sux ? Why it seems they dig their grave with each newer version ?

vb compatible but the net's not all about vb

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not blaming netscape just because of VB !! Vb is a thing, but all my grief concerning netscape are for all kind of web work I do. Vb is just one among others.


If you still believe the majority of us needs to be enlightened and move on to "newer" better things then let me say that a lot of us don't regard IE as "the better thing"

Well not realizing IE is better than netscape for websurfing, is for me more a mathematical consideration problem than an abstract opinion.
Sure everyone can have his own opinion, but here its not anymore an "opinion" problem. Its just a fact.

[version2]

I am not going to be long-winded. I have been on the net since Lynx says. (Still use it in a pinch too.) Anyway, I was always a big Netscape supporter until IE became faster. To me, it has nothing to do with who is more compliant or if it is a Micro$oft product. It has to do with...which one is faster. On my machine. Under my control.

Thats IE. Sorry.

Of course, on my Linux boxes...I still use Netscape. Well, actually, I do use Lynx quite a bit.

Its faster. ;)

[dwh]

I'm upset that Netscape browser is not as good as IE anymore, but the talent at Netscape left long ago.

What self respecting techie at the cutting edge, building from zero the company that made the net what it is today, would be willing to work for yech, AOL? Anyone good is outta there...

I make sure my pages are ok for netscape and most of my customers use Netscape for some reason, even if the end users go with IE.

I don't think Netscape is as dead as all that.

Verizon's (non-functional) DSL works with Netscape. That should be good for a few more Netscape users.

[Flare945]

more accurate question:

why do people use it?



i always have, and always will use IE. its just better.

[MattR]

I love IE 5.5! It rarely crashes, and when it does Win2k keeps it from hanging the system or killing my other browser windows.

I was also on the net back when I had magical Lynx (but I don't use it any more ;)) and I preferred Netscape 3 to IE 3. However when Netscape released Communicator they re-wrote the engine and it went all downhill from there. Netscape lost long ago but they're trying to keep slogging on. Netscape 6 I tried to install on my work PC when I was bored. BIG MISTAKE. Give me IE5.5 any day, and I wish the rest of the world would switch as well.

When Netscape can't display HTML STANDARDS why in the world is anyone using it?

People who use Netscape think they're hurting MS by not using IE. Well, no not really. IE is free to anyone who wants to download it. The people you are hurting are webmasters like you and I who have to take VALID HTML and tweak it so that Netscape doesn't refuse to display the page. We're hurting when we can't run neat things because we might offend 3% of our viewing audience. We're hurting because it takes DAYS to figure out sometimes what Netscape is doing before we throw our hands up in the air in disgust and say "SCREW IT. Bob will have to live without X feature".

Let Netscape die. As was said before the talent left when IE started winning. It's now owned by AOL / Time Warner which in my book would seem to be just as 'evil' as MS.

[cowpuncher]

I use Opera personally...... mainly cos its the best in terms of standards support, plus it has rockin features and is super duper fast.

I find if you can make it look good in opera then it will look good in both nutscrape and internet explorer..... plus i try to make all my code xhtml compliant so there should really be no excuse for it looking crap.....

[Snoozy]

OPERA OPERA OPERA!!!

I am using IE 6. It just works better....

I have a pentium 4 1.4 ghz, 256 megs of RDRAM and a 7,200 rpm hard drive, and it takes me 13 seconds to load netscape.....what the hell? I'm not trying to brag about my comp (although it is nice!) but come on! A quad pIII xeons at 933 takes 8 seconds! I can load my cad progam faster than that!

I like IE 6 and Opera, my father, who was an avid Netscaper recently switched over to IE because he said: "Netscape Sucks!" He was tired of it taking 30 minutes to load and then having it render all the pages, like crap. Netscape really needs to get their act together with the CCS, but I guess they just want to make us designers earn our money! I am the biggest anti-micro$oft person, but they do have some good software, and IE happens to be one of those programs.

[ToraTora!]

Netscape to me is the equalivant of people who live on welfare. They dont want to get off their lazy asses and fix the problems in their life, so they just keep giving the "maybe nextime".

Problems with Netscape.

1) Java scroll. Real nice to see all of that hard work to make a simple scroll, just sit there.

2) tables. Read any complaints from VB, and you have my excact thoughts. Netscape cannot for the life of them get it rite. Nice and centered on IE, to the left and missing shi* on netscape.

3) This is thought was a beauty. Color recognitions, and my favorite for VB use....the split screen admin log in (shows up in both left, middle, and right screens...) and the no automatic leap when you log into the admin area. (you have to go back up to the URL bar and hit return as the page sits dead with "hold on a sec" displayed.

4) 6.0 There is a fricken joke to society. Im not even going to dwell on this much. I have NEVER had IE crash on me, and i have three versions, including the 6.0. Netscape 6.0....crash and burn just loading it up. Thats a good browser to have isnt it?

5) Unix arguments....My roomate is a UNIX administrator, so believe me when I say he is anti Microsoft...I can see his points, however with Netscapes latest fiasco, he is seeing my points.

6) Communication....hmmmm....Vb is a form of communication, and frankly if we as owners of VB have to conform every damned time to some outdated cheap ass with a browser that has not improved for close to 6 years, than we as owners might as well go back to mailing lists, because improvements, or progress will never be made when all you can do is go fuc*ing backwards.

7) What is it with people hating IE?? There is not one viable argument that a person can tell me other than their personal vendettas, or hatred for the company based on a unix education that i can understand this reasoning. Yes, IE took a few things, but so did a car company to another car company and guess what that means? Competition....either get with the times or become outdated. Do you think cars would have airbags rite now, if another company would never of put in seatbelts? hell no.
Same thing with IE and Netscape. IE pretty much ran with progress while Netscape figured their name would keep the clientel. (At one time they were the shi*)

8) Explain to me again, why I as a web designer, and owner of a site, should buy more data base space, and create twelve different sites so they conform to out dated browsers again?
I mean, I should waste hours and time, money, and resorces so that four or five people can enjoy my site?
I am up at this hour because of a couple of people do not have a PC, and my templates were causing me some stress....is it fuc*ing worth it???
I have never yet seen a car company go back to making a model "t" because some old fart and his brother wanted one.
If you think that this is the way business is ran, than you can also pay for the wasted space, but i would rather see you take that money, buy a decent computer, and download a new version of a browser so we need not waste what little money we have to please some one sided stubborn netscape user bullshi*.

9) If Netscape is this wonder browser, than why the hell is it the least used browser? There are alot of closet IE users, and they all slam IE when asked the Netscape question, but in private, they switch on IE like a porn channel when mom is gone.

10) This country did not advance to where it is now by giving a crap about outdated products. Slinky doesnt sell nearly what it did at one time, and some of my favorite car makers went out of business a long long time ago.

That does not mean that just because i like them, that I have the rite to bash the progress of others. Without progress, we would still be using a cup and string, but instead we have cell phones.
without progress, most people would be making dinner on cast iron stove instead of in a microwave.
And without a diligant push to either tell Netscape to shi* or get off the pot, we will all be working to damned hard to conform to someones laziness and ignorance to what has become expected.

[Jake Bunce]

lol, this thread still lives.

[ToraTora!]

yeh Jake, thanks to your responce up above real early this morning... (i thought i had a sure win there..lol) i had to go and drudge up the dead hoping someone else could shed some light on my frusterating experience, and since this thread was about Netscape painful experiences....I figured I would let off some steam waiting for the next "heres your solution to the problem" to my above thread..lol

Sorry about that....:)

[Hooper]

I tried to view my UBB board with Netscape once. All during the designing process I fought.

What a pair. It was then that I knew I found hell.