[known issue - absolute text size in IE] Text Size is Huge

[Steve Machol]

With no changes in my browser settings, the text size in vB 3 is much larger than in vB 2.2.8.

[Freddie Bingham]

Originally posted by Steve Machol
With no changes in my browser settings, the text size in vB 3 is much larger than in vB 2.2.8. Do you not have this problem on the beta forums? You should since the style is exactly the same.

[Steve Machol]

Yes, the problem is at the beta forums too. I really haven't spent much time there so I never reported it. Also I just thought it was part of the unfinished style.

Any idea why it would be like this?

[SWFans.net]

Maybe its the new CSS for body text?body {
background: #666696;
color: #000000;
font: 10pt verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif;
}The old method used standard HTML size via replacement variables that you set in the style fonts/colors area if I remember correctly.<font face="verdana,arial,helvetica" size="1" >From what I know about CSS, using size in the font tag actually works better for people in IE that change their font size to smaller or larger, allowing the size to change while a CSS value doesn't allow the size of the font to change when a user changes that setting.

[Floris]

Maybe you accidently scrolled up or down with the mouse while holding down the control key? :D

The text is the same as on the beta site here, and it hasn't increased.

[Steve Machol]

Thanks but that's not it. The browser text sixe is set to 'Smaller'. I think it's the CSS code as SWfans.net point out. The old forums used the <font size=2> attribute for normal text size. On my system, size 2 displays noticeably smaller than 10 pt.

And yes, as I had noted it is the same size as on the beta forums.

[SWFans.net]

Here is a picture that shows that message text does not change sizes when you change the font size view in IE. Signature text does change however, as you can see.

[SWFans.net]

BTW: I would consider it a serious BUG if my users could not change the size of message text via their browser's options. There are millions of disabled people throughout the world that use the Internet and depend on accessibility options such as that.

[Steve Machol]

Interesting. I never noticed that before. It looks like the text size change affects the <font size> attribute but not the CSS font size setting. Personally I'd rather go with <font size> so people are able to adjust the size to their own preferences.

[Floris]

Originally posted by SWFans.net
BTW: I would consider it a serious BUG if my users could not change the size of message text via their browser's options. There are millions of disabled people throughout the world that use the Internet and depend on accessibility options such as that. I see 25% of the normal 100% - I just tested, I can't change it indeed. Only signature and other stuff changes in size. Uhm, oh well.

[Steve Machol]

Originally posted by SWFans.net
BTW: I would consider it a serious BUG if my users could not change the size of message text via their browser's options. There are millions of disabled people throughout the world that use the Internet and depend on accessibility options such as that. I agree. (See my previous note.) Not all eyes are created equal and they shouldn't be treated as such. :)

[SWFans.net]

I performed the text size test in Mozilla and it allows the text size to change, so this is a browser issue, but we do all know which browser is the most widely used, and Mozilla isn't it. x_x

[Streicher]

.... and it is also a different between 10px or 10pt.

[SWFans.net]

I don't recall the exact coding we used, but we ran into the same problem back when I was on ezboard and they went all CSS (eons ago thanks to vB). We got around it by using percentages instead of px or pt in the CSS. Percentages allowed IE to change the size.

If I looked back at one of my old ezboards (if its still there) I could get the code we used.

EDIT: ahhaa It was still there:body {
font-size: 70%; font-family: verdana
}

[Babylon]

Originally posted by SWFans.net
I performed the text size test in Mozilla and it allows the text size to change, so this is a browser issue, but we do all know which browser is the most widely used, and Mozilla isn't it. x_x

I've noticed it for quite a while and yes it definatly is a browser issue. With IE it's fine if you use <font size=2>text</font> BUT if you use style sheets as well, or only style sheets, then it stops you from changing text size.

To be honest i was always happy with that because it's hard enough have to design things that look good on all monitors without having to worry about text size on top of that. And you could always just change your monitor resolution if you have difficulty seeing text?

[Freddie Bingham]

Originally posted by SWFans.net
I don't recall the exact coding we used, but we ran into the same problem back when I was on ezboard and they went all CSS (eons ago thanks to vB). We got around it by using percentages instead of px or pt in the CSS. Percentages allowed IE to change the size.

If I looked back at one of my old ezboards (if its still there) I could get the code we used.

EDIT: ahhaa It was still there:body {
font-size: 70%; font-family: verdana
} The text isn't changing sizes on purpose and you will have to wait for Kier to explain to you why he has set it that way.

[SWFans.net]

Originally posted by Babylon
I've noticed it for quite a while and yes it definatly is a browser issue. With IE it's fine if you use <font size=2>text</font> BUT if you use style sheets as well, or only style sheets, then it stops you from changing text size.

To be honest i was always happy with that because it's hard enough have to design things that look good on all monitors without having to worry about text size on top of that. And you could always just change your monitor resolution if you have difficulty seeing text? Good point, but which method do you think the average non tech savvy user is going to use, the browser option to increase size (simple to find and figure out) or the more complex thing of changing resolution and or typical monitor font sizes?

[SWFans.net]

Originally posted by freddie
The text isn't changing sizes on purpose and you will have to wait for Kier to explain to you why he has set it that way. I'm cool with that. :)

[NTLDR]

Originally posted by Babylon
And you could always just change your monitor resolution if you have difficulty seeing text?

What about those users with fixed resolutions? And if you think users are going to change resolution just to look at your site, well I doubt that very much.

[tubedogg]

Originally posted by freddie
The text isn't changing sizes on purpose and you will have to wait for Kier to explain to you why he has set it that way. Specifying fonts in pt sizes allows it to remain consistent across browsers. pt sizes vary widely between IE/Mozilla/Opera. px cannot be resized using the font size menu in IE, unfortunately.

[Steve Machol]

Originally posted by Babylon
And you could always just change your monitor resolution if you have difficulty seeing text? The problem with that is if I change it to accomodate vB3, then all the other pages I access will not be at the best size for my viewing.

[Freddie Bingham]

Originally posted by tubedogg
Specifying fonts in pt sizes allows it to remain consistent across browsers. px sizes vary widely between IE/Mozilla/Opera. px cannot be resized using the font size menu in IE, unfortunately. Yes, I understand 'why' but I can't tell Steve how it benefits him and others with the same situation.

[SWFans.net]

Originally posted by tubedogg
Specifying fonts in pt sizes allows it to remain consistent across browsers. px sizes vary widely between IE/Mozilla/Opera. px cannot be resized using the font size menu in IE, unfortunately. That being the case, I think it would be best to accomodate the millions of disabled users out there by having body text be sized the way it was previously or at least have it be optional to do the CSS or size in a font tag depending on the admin's preference. Being a person with a disability myself makes me want to accomodate others with different disabilities than my own.

[Steve Machol]

I changed my display back to 'normal' text (it was set at 125%) and this forum appears fine. However everything else (email, Word, Quicken, other websites, etc.) is now too small to be read conmfortably.

I guess it's my fault for being old and having deteriorating eyesight, but it would be nice to be able to see everything again. ;)

[Stadler]

Originally posted by SWFans.net

EDIT: ahhaa It was still there:body {
font-size: 70%; font-family: verdana
} Well ... surely you can adjust sizes with IE then, but the maximum would still be smaller, than using the non-CSS-version.

[SWFans.net]

Originally posted by Stadler
Well ... surely you can adjust sizes with IE then, but the maximum would still be smaller, than using the non-CSS-version. Which could probably be resolved by inserting 100% into that code in place of 70% (at least I think so). :)

[Stadler]

Originally posted by SWFans.net
Which could probably be resolved by inserting 100% into that code in place of 70% (at least I think so). :) Well, I did some checks with mozilla and IE earlier today and it wouldn't be the same using <font size="2"> and so on.

It works in Mozilla, but IE breaks it, as you've stated it. Gee, I know why I'm not using IE anymore ;)

[SWFans.net]

Originally posted by Stadler
Well, I did some checks with mozilla and IE earlier today and it wouldn't be the same using <font size="2"> and so on.

It works in Mozilla, but IE breaks it, as you've stated it. Gee, I know why I'm not using IE anymore ;) And that takes us right back to the big burning question that plagues so many web developers all the time. Which browser do you accommodate? Mozilla appears to work with it either in CSS or in font size while IE only accommodates in the font tag size attribute or CSS percentage. :D

[Chen]

Originally posted by Steve Machol
I changed my display back to 'normal' text (it was set at 125%) and this forum appears fine. However everything else (email, Word, Quicken, other websites, etc.) is now too small to be read conmfortably.

I guess it's my fault for being old and having deteriorating eyesight, but it would be nice to be able to see everything again. ;) Maybe vB3.1 should have forum guide dogs! ;)

[XiXora]

maybe use em!! :) evrything would be set to the default size and inherited etc etc :p

[Babylon]

Originally posted by SWFans.net
Good point, but which method do you think the average non tech savvy user is going to use, the browser option to increase size (simple to find and figure out) or the more complex thing of changing resolution and or typical monitor font sizes?

Fair point. I guess i forget about that side of things at times :(

Originally posted by NTLDR
What about those users with fixed resolutions? And if you think users are going to change resolution just to look at your site, well I doubt that very much.

I don't think people are going to change their resolution just to look at one site either (i never make sites like that, and i don't think people should) but what i was meaning is that if someone is visually impared they are likely to be using a resolution such as 640x480 to look at the entire web not just one website (meaning text would be bigger/easier to see).

That's why i like IE not changing text size when using CSS. I can have my site looking like how i intended it to, but i will usually consider all the other possible users who may visit my site and make a version suitable for them also.

Originally posted by Steve Machol
The problem with that is if I change it to accomodate vB3, then all the other pages I access will not be at the best size for my viewing.
As i said just above :) Sorry if my point was unclear, I don't mean to use vb you should have to change your resolution ;)

Hope i made some sort of sense this time :cool:
(mental note to self: read your damn posts!)

[Floris]

I totally agree with you.

[Russell]

This just sounds like IE is acting silly - does it not make sense for the increase text size button to do what it says it will?

Interesting that IE on the mac seems to work fine doing this here... all text increases.. same with Safari.

[WetWired]

Um, px is a pixel absolute size, and pt is a ruler absolute size (though I fault MS for saying that your screen is 96dpi by default regardless of your resolution). Thus it would be expected for a browser to use that size regardless of the size setting in the browser; I would call Mozzilla wrong for not using it, myself. The correct thing to do is to use em (1em,0.7em,1.25em,etc.) in the CSS; since this is a relative specification, it should work everywhere.

[Wayne Luke]

You know, I just upgraded my machine to Redhat Linux. Using the latest Mozilla Firebird browser under that OS, makes the font too small on this site.

I just find it funny how two different browsers on two different platforms can make a fixed point font that is supposed to render the same across browsers and platforms can do this. Every time I visit this site, I have to scale up the fontsize in the browser so I can work with it.

I think I am going to have to write a custom stylesheet for this site so the browser does it automatically. Hmmm, if I do that I can get rid of the purple and yellow as well and underline links properly as well. ;)

[WichitaRacing]

At my work computer (Win95, not sure about IE version) when Stangnet.com went vB 3.x my font size was suddenly huge and I could not reduce it. The when fordpower.net switched it did the same thing. VERY annoying.

Now I'm thinking about upgrading my wichitaracing.com forum to v3.x, but I'm remembering how much I hated that big text...

[Scott MacVicar]

I hope its not IE3 since its not supported in vB3 since its about 8 years old now. You'll need IE4 minimuim.

Just go to Help then About to read the IE version.

[WichitaRacing]

I hope its not IE3 since its not supported in vB3 since its about 8 years old now. You'll need IE4 minimuim.

Just go to Help then About to read the IE version.
I should note that I just got a new PC at work, so it's ok now. But I was using IE 5.5 on my Win95 box.

[Lumina]

IPB uses a set of 14 different sizes, and it looks to work fine everywhere. :)

[MiF]

The board should never use absolute sizes. A 10pt size is a 10pt size. Browsers should not scale it by themselves since it's author's intent to use a specific font size and browser scaling of an absolute size can create layout issues unintended by the page author.

Only relative sizes should be scaled by the browser and the board should be using relative sizes.

[iDavid]

The board should never use absolute sizes. A 10pt size is a 10pt size. Browsers should not scale it by themselves since it's author's intent to use a specific font size and browser scaling of an absolute size can create layout issues unintended by the page author.

Only relative sizes should be scaled by the browser and the board should be using relative sizes.
There should be nothing disallowing the visually impaired to use the Internet.

[rylin]

There should be nothing disallowing the visually impaired to use the Internet.
I disagree with that statement :P

In my house, I set the rules, and I do things my way.
On my site, I set the rules, and I do things my way.

If visually (or otherwise) impaired people have a problem with my site, they can either use text2speech software, on-screen magnifiers - or chose to go elsewhere.

/me causes a riot

That said, people shouldn't go out of their way to cause problems for impaired people, so sensible defaults wouldn't be a bad thing ;)

[MiF]

There should be nothing disallowing the visually impaired to use the Internet.
If you noticed I said "Only relative sizes should be scaled by the browser and the board should be using relative sizes."

So, I basically said sites should be designed with ability to scale them. In other words with the use of relative sizes.

[Cloudrunner]

The board should never use absolute sizes. A 10pt size is a 10pt size. Browsers should not scale it by themselves since it's author's intent to use a specific font size and browser scaling of an absolute size can create layout issues unintended by the page author.

Only relative sizes should be scaled by the browser and the board should be using relative sizes.To add to this, making a site compliant for diability accessibility is not a simple undertaking.

My suggestion for the font size issue here is already documented on the W3C site as well as bobby.watchfire.com.

Basically it is stated that when needing to make a size change in the font size, do NOT use an absolute, even of a percentage. Instead, in the CSS simply tell it a relative style. I.e. To make the font bigger, it would be thus:
.EmphasisSize {
font-size: larger;
}
The accepted relative sizing options are:

xx-small
x-small
smaller
small
medium
large
larger
x-large
xx-large
That being the case, these listed relative sizings are used to either increase or decrease (as the names give example to) using the base font size as their comparator.


The browser then determines the sizing factor using these codes. This is also the accepted way of writing in font sizing for "Blind-Readers", as most other ways confuse the readers, so they speak the HTML tags, thus confusing the person. Not at all what we intended as developers.

Sidenote: The only reason I am writing this is because I am currently coding sites for two disability websites for non-profit orgs. They REQUIRE absolute WAI, and W3C AAA Compatibility. Enjoy.

[feldon23]

So we still have reached no solution here.

What is the possibility of specifying basefont size with ems like style="font-size: 1em;" ?

Would that be consistant across all browsers?

I need a real solution, not this "well have people use Opera" crap. I tried 100%, but different IE users saw different things at the same font setting!

[Cloudrunner]

I tried 100%, but different IE users saw different things at the same font setting!To reiterate:

Basically it is stated that when needing to make a size change in the font size, do NOT use an absolute, even of a percentage. Instead, in the CSS simply tell it a relative style. I.e. To make the font bigger, it would be thus:
.EmphasisSize {
font-size: larger;
}
The accepted relative sizing options are:

xx-small
x-small
smaller
small
medium
large
larger
x-large
xx-large
That being the case, these listed relative sizings are used to either increase or decrease (as the names give example to) using the base font size as their comparator.Not being a pain, just letting folks know what WAI is asking for...

[Swamper]

I agree that users should be able to change the text size via their browsers - if it was something they could do in vB 2.x they'll be upset if they can't do it now...

I'm all for relative sizing - I love whats been done programming/structure wise in vB3 but IMO this is something that should not be swept under the carpet...

In the perfect world every web surfers screen should look like ours at home... but until that happens - we gotta work with it as best we can.

[vadimr]

Check this out.

A user on my site found a problem to this, no fix but it explains why this is not working correctly. I have bunch of users moaning that the size is too big.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html
Verdana font is a problem!

[urban75]

Quite a few of my users have been moaning about the text being too big and unresizable too. The trouble is that cross browser issues means that you can only guarantee consistent font size displays on all platforms by specifying pixel sizes in CSS - and that's bad news for those with accessibility issues who'd like to simply change the font size in their browser.

Annoyingly, Ye Olde <font face> tag was far more accommodating and verdana size=1 would display on just about everything more or less consistently (but less so on bigger sizes)

There's a handy - and comprehensive - CSS font size comparison table here: http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/font/browser.html

[diades]

Hi Guys

I have made two "styles" for each style, one with fixed font sizes(px) and an "adjustable text" variation of it which uses "em". I set the font size for the body and everything follows suit accordingly with all font-sizes changed to "em"

[CoreyT]

Glad I found this post.
We just upgraded to version 3 RV 3 Friday night, and we are getting a lot of complaints on our forum.
www.yotatech.com

I posted this ? over in the "How do I" section here, then found this post.

I fired up Netscape 4.77 and indeed I can changed the font size via the browser settings, but the forum does not look good with Netscape, you lose the thin pixel line that seperates the forum catagories :(

I wish this issue coiuld be fixed, as most users use IE 5.5 or 6 now, and it would be nice to change it via the browser.
If it's a simple fix, all the more better, as I am not a coder, and don't know how to imput a lot of this stuff into the admin area.

Corey

[diades]

Hi CoreyT

I have attached the xml file for one of the "adjustablr text" styles that I trying out. It is by no means complete but you should get the idea. The file has been changed to ".txt" so you will need to change the extension to ".xml" if you want to try it out. You will see the font settings by opening the template manager>Main CSS and the styles for each section are then available

[Natch]

Font size should be specified with EM's - there is a CSS trick to get IE sizeing to render the same as all others, but it IS (repeat IS) a CSS hack to trick IE:
Example

body {
font:x-small/1.5em Georgia,Serif;
voice-family: "\"}\""; voice-family:inherit;
font-size:small;
} html>body {font-size:small;}


It's the voice-family: "\"}\""; voice-family:inherit; trick that will cause IE5.x to render the font: x-small statement but then fail to render anything following the voice-family jiggery-pokery (for more info read up on CSS hacks on alistapart.com (http://www.alistapart.com/)) - other browsers that are more CSS compliant (aka Opera and Mozilla) will gloss over the hack, override the font-size:x-small statement with either the font-size: small for fully compliant browsers like Mozilla, or the CSS2 re-definition html>body {font-size:small;} for Opera that breaks the same way as IE5.x, but can render CSS2 properly (which IE5.x can't).

OK - now that's a bloody mouthful, but it's a short hack that should propagate down thru your CSS file, IF you use EM's or other relative sizeings across the board ('scuse the pun) ...

My AUD$0.02: For Netscrape 4.7x browsers, I would prefer to serve up a different page via browser sniffing that says UPGRADE YOUR BROWSER DAMMNIT then redirects to the Mozilla Products page after 10 seconds ... but that's just my Aussie bloody-mindedness ...

[diades]

but that's just my Aussie bloody-mindedness ... And I thought that the Aussies that I used to meet in "Little Australia" (Earl's Court) on UK walkabout were such gentle souls :D