The Presidential Results! [Archive] - vBulletin Community Forum

JimF

Thu 9th Nov '00, 1:03am

How abut the ability to pronoune ENGLISH words? That should count for something. I would have voted for Nader, but I wanted to be sure that my vote went to making sure that BUSH didn't win.

I'm sorry, a man who cannot speak proper English should NOT be allowed to run this country. There should be at least a literacy test as part of the qualifications.

I'm sure he did a great job for Texas. That's why they killed everyone ever convicted of a crime, and Houston has the worst air pollution in the country.

The only vote of confidence for Bush came from his parents. If it weren't for him, he'd be picking buckshot out of his dogs somewhere in Texas. The man should NOT be allowed to run this country.

A man of his word? He lied to his own family and media about being arrested for drunk driving. I don't care about how long ago it happened, he LIED about recently.

The white house needs a SERIOUS candidate. One who will not lie to his own family. Additionally, we need someone who can properly pronounce "subliminable".

If Bush wins this election, this country will go to total ****.

-jim

WebStyles

Thu 9th Nov '00, 2:39am

I have been glued to the news since yesterday... My productivity has been way down, I keep flipping from my work to cnn.com every 5 minutes. :)

I personally agree with JimF. I think Bush would bring on a lot of really bad things. Apathetic schools, an end to the great economy and low unemployment rate, the end of women's rights, tax cuts for the extremely wealthy, pollution, and the end of social security. When NBC announced Bush as the winner last night, I had this awful feeling of dread. I'm still optimistic though. :)

Susan

Thu 9th Nov '00, 3:24am

See, this is why ya don't talk politics which is why I'm going to do it! :D Personally, abstention seemed the best way to go for me. When none of the canidates hold my ideals and neither is really even close, I can't see voting for either. I thought about writing in Mickey Mouse...at least he makes me laugh occasionally.

Seriously, though the thought of Tipper Gore in the White House scares the bejesus outta me. (Anybody remember a little thing refered to as "the Washington Wives" or the PMRC?) With a name like "metalmommy" (My AOL screen name before I became enlightend and my AIM name today) Tipper Gore scares me.

If there's ever an election where the politician is pro-choice, against huge amounts of social spending for those perfectly capable of work, for either cutting taxes or for a uniform tax percentage (ie flat tax), Pro gun control, pro free speech, and ready to clean up the criminal element by putting carreer criminals away for life and harsh punishments for even first time offenders, I'll get out and vote. Till then, I can't see putting my endorsement on any of them.

Now, who wants to talk religion? LOL

Aaron

Thu 9th Nov '00, 3:53am

hrmmm.. I dunno, but last time I checked (bout 10 seconds ago) "subliminable" wasn't even a word, I believe the correct word is subliminal. I'm sorry, a man who cannot speak proper English should NOT be allowed to run this country. There should be at least a literacy test as part of the qualifications.
Perhaps there is need for a polygraph test as well...

My father has less than stellar grammar, he was deaf as a child, and went through his early years of gradeschool without being able to hear. His grammar has suffered slightly as a result, and yet that has not stopped him from becoming one of the greatest teachers I have ever known. He is very competant at what he does, continually voted as the top instructor by his students (air force pilots). Although he hasn't mastered the English language, it by no means has affected his competency to get the job done. He has always been and still is one of the greatest examples of integrity, honesty, intelligence, character, and leadership that I have ever known. Aside from the DUI incident, Bush has reminded me of my father in many ways. While perfect usage of the English language at the highest levels is indeed an important factor in a President, it is by NO MEANS a determinant of capability.

And how can you even begin to criticise Bush for keeping quiet about a DUI, all the while knowing that his opponent Al Gore was part of an administration that has filled the past 8 years with scandals and lies?

As for the economy, we're still riding on the wave that Reagan and Bush created, it takes time for the economy to adjust to changes made by an administration and the good economy of today is not a result of anything the Clinton administration did.

Social Security?? That was a lost cause long ago, why keep chasing after something thats doomed to fail? Why should I be forced to let the government throw my money at a lost cause?

Womens rights?? What about a baby's right to live? On the day of conception, that baby is a living being, if women don't want the responsibility of a child, they should be responsible enough to prevent the conception of that child. What about mens rights? If in any way abortion should be legal, a man should have an equal say in whether that child lives, although the baby is not physically growing inside of him, he did contribute half of the genetic material required, it is his child too, and should be his decision as well. In the end, the baby is the one that gets screwed.

In my opinion, Gore is the incompetant one. He is the liar. He wants to take our guns, and with them, our freedom.

For the past 8 years Clinton and Gore have disgraced our country. I don't know about you, but I think it's time we had a President that doesn't evoke shame and mistrust from the citizens of the United States.

[Edited by Aaron on 11-09-2000 at 03:29 AM]

Skeptical

Thu 9th Nov '00, 5:21am

Regardless of what anyone may believe in, I think most of us have to agree... Gore is much much more skilled and competent as a politician than Bush.

Did anyone see Bush on Oprah? Many of his responses to questions were just so airheaded.

And the debates... Well, the last one Bush definitely got his ass kicked.

A very important attribute a president must have is the ability to negotiate and communicate with power. Bush doesn't have that. I'm sorry, but Cheney is much much more competent than W Bush. Heck even Jeb Bush looks, acts, and talks with much more composure than W.

Well, I guess it's settled. We will definitely miss Clinton. Imagine if he were allowed to run again. He'd kick Bush's ass in a second.

Kathy

Thu 9th Nov '00, 8:42am

Miss Clinton?

No. Isn't possible. I'll be grateful to hide that one. He disgraced the nation.

Menno

Thu 9th Nov '00, 9:04am

Gore is bad, Bush is worse.

My vote goes to the lesser of two evils :)
But ofcourse I don't live in the USA...

JimF

Thu 9th Nov '00, 11:45am

Originally posted by Aaron
hrmmm.. I dunno, but last time I checked (bout 10 seconds ago) "subliminable" wasn't even a word, I believe the correct word is subliminal.

That's exactly my point.

-jim

Kathy

Thu 9th Nov '00, 11:56am

In our country we get to express our views, vote in elections and then stay united as one nation under God.

When we have a change in government parties, an election, a rally, there is not the car torches, bricks through windows, building bombings and such that I hear about and see on the news from other countries attempting a democracy.

We have the coolest system. We don't have to take the leader based on genetics. We don't have to take a leader forever without a check and balance of term limitations and without an election.

I think its an awesome land we live in.

Exercise your vote and you've done the most patriotic thing you can do. ...(humming the Star Spangled Banner here)

No matter who wins...(and it might be a few weeks before we know according to some reports?) we will be a nation with the best system (and although not perfect...still the best possible in a world of imperfect people)....and we will be the nation which the world watches for strength, leadership and economic powers.

America! She's a great nation. :D

wajones

Thu 9th Nov '00, 12:48pm

Originally posted by JimF
How abut the ability to pronoune ENGLISH words? That should count for something. I would have voted for Nader, but I wanted to be sure that my vote went to making sure that BUSH didn't win.

I'm sorry, a man who cannot speak proper English should NOT be allowed to run this country. There should be at least a literacy test as part of the qualifications.

-jim

Maybe we should give everyone a "pronoune" test to be able to vote! No lets not, I would be disqualified, as we all probably would be.

By the way Hitler was perhaps one the most verbally polished public figures the world has known. He almost destroyed the very reason we can freely express our views without fear of being punished for it. I'm sure those who couldn't "pronoune" properly wouldn't have fit into his ideal super race of exceptable human beings.

Originally posted by Aaron
For the past 8 years Clinton and Gore have disgraced our country. I don't know about you, but I think it's time we had a President that doesn't evoke shame and mistrust from the citizens of the United States.

I agree 100%, for anyone to think that Gore didn't know and condone what Clinton was doing is a fool. The fact that he and all the Democrats in congress that didn't step up and condemn him is the shame of our country.

[Edited by wajones on 11-09-2000 at 12:02 PM]

Karl

Thu 9th Nov '00, 1:18pm

I live in the UK and find it kind of scarry that Bush could get to be president, I mean you need to be able to handle people from other countries - from what I hear he has only left the country on 3 occasions!

From the TV I have seen over here of Bush I kind of get the impression that he is just a famous face to go with someone elses agenda and that on his own he couldn't organise a p***-up in a brewery.

As for Clinton, well he happens to be one of the best leaders the USA has had in a long while - For all those that say the current economic climate is nothing to do with him I say think again. If he weren't a good leader he could have trashed the economy by now - Trust me, we have Tony Blair as a leader and he hasn't got a clue if you ask me, especially when it comes to balancing the wishes of the people and the needs of the country.

JimF

Thu 9th Nov '00, 1:28pm

Originally posted by wajones
[QUOTE] Maybe we should give everyone a "pronoune" test to be able to vote! No lets not, I would be disqualified, as we all probably would be.

By the way Hitler was perhaps one the most verbally polished public figures the world has known. He almost destroyed the very reason we can freely express our views without fear of being punished for it. I'm sure those who couldn't "pronoune" properly wouldn't have fit into his ideal super race of exceptable human beings.

The leader of the free world should be able to speak the language of the country he's ruling. I'm not running for president. You're not running for president. And if I couldn't speak proper English, I WOULDN'T run for president.

I'm not condoning Hitler's actions by any means, but he was a good leader of his people. A leader should be well spoken, and educated. Not George "dubyah" Bush.

It will be a sad day for this country if Bush turns out to be the winner in this election.

-jim

wajones

Thu 9th Nov '00, 2:07pm

Originally posted by Karl
As for Clinton, well he happens to be one of the best leaders the USA has had in a long while - For all those that say the current economic climate is nothing to do with him I say think again. If he weren't a good leader he could have trashed the economy by now - Trust me, we have Tony Blair as a leader and he hasn't got a clue if you ask me, especially when it comes to balancing the wishes of the people and the needs of the country.

Clintons charm is so deceiving, the Republican Congress has worked so hard and achieved so much to put the Regan economic system into place, yet Clinton gets the credit! Over the years I have hated the boisterous voice of the Republican Congress, yet they are the one’s that have carried through and put into place the tools that make our present economy so strong.

Seems he (Clinton) has more than women under his spell! That is so funny, yet so sad… as for Tony Blair, to the outside world he has much of the same qualities that Clinton has, I perceive him as being a good leader.

How many of us are old enough to remember that High School Class president that we thought to be so great, because of his looks and charm, only to find out over the years how shallow he actually was/is. Clinton's charm is shallow, the fact that he/the Democrats get credit for our Economic success is really sad.

Originally posted by JimF
The leader of the free world should be able to speak the language of the country he's ruling.
-jim

Shouldn't that be serving, not "ruling" and shouldn't the leader of the free world keep his personal life at home, not under his desk in the oval office.

Besides all the crap we fling, what really matters is that the American people including me will eventually support which ever one ends up winning, I personally think Gore will actually win and will do a good job despite others personal feelings. It takes a lot of people to run this country, not one man. Hopefully Whoever is elected he will recognise how evenly the country is split on the issues and "serve" the people not his own interrests.

[Edited by wajones on 11-09-2000 at 01:47 PM]

wajones

Thu 9th Nov '00, 3:05pm

Originally posted by Me2Be
Anyone like talking about politics? Was anyone else glued to the TV last night watching the results?? What do you think of the Palm Beach situation?

First off please excuse me for being so active in this thread, I love to hear peoples opinion's. I would like to address Me2Be's original question that we have strayed from. That's how politics works, just avoid the question. ;)

The Palm Beach situation is really unfortunate, even more unfortunate is that wherever you have people you have corruption and mistakes; hopefully this was a mistake that can be fixed. I would not want a president elected with such a mistake causing the outcome one way or the other.

There also seems to be many mistakes/errors hopefully not corruption, but who knows, in several states that could as well change the outcome of the election. Never before has this been realized, no election has ever been this close that it would have mattered as far as I know.

What does this mean, hopefully it means that we will get some kind of election reform.

What kind of reform do we need? I would like to see the popular vote alone be the deciding factor. The reasons for the electorial college have long disapeared.

What do you think?

mferrell

Thu 9th Nov '00, 4:17pm

I agree 100%, for anyone to think that Gore didn't know and condone what Clinton was doing is a fool. The fact that he and all the Democrats in congress that didn't step up and condemn him is the shame of our country.

You're mistaken on that point. Joe Liberman condemned Clinton for his behavior. He was very outspoken about that issue.

WebStyles

Thu 9th Nov '00, 4:37pm

Originally posted by Aaron
Womens rights?? What about a baby's right to live? On the day of conception, that baby is a living being, if women don't want the responsibility of a child, they should be responsible enough to prevent the conception of that child.

And when a woman gets raped or is an incest victim? I suppose that would be her fault as well? The government has no right to make that decision for anyone.

JimF

Thu 9th Nov '00, 4:45pm

One of the main reasons that a woman would abort a child is becuase they have no means of supporting that child. Maybe not emotionally, but monetarily. And that is usually because the father doesn't want to have to support the child.

It must be all those anti-birth control republicans making all those babies and not paying for them. Then they say "HA HA! We're gonna pass laws that won't let you abort the baby".

Don't blame this on the women; if the men were smart enough, they would prepare accordingly. Don't punish the women because the man is lazy.

I do believe in not allowing abortions after a given amount of time; like I don't think that babies in the third trimester should be aborted, but prior to that, it should be the woman's choice.

Men making a law prohibiting abortions is like a bunch of men designing tampons for a living. It just shouldn't be done.

-jim

wajones

Thu 9th Nov '00, 5:03pm

Originally posted by mferrell
I agree 100%, for anyone to think that Gore didn't know and condone what Clinton was doing is a fool. The fact that he and all the Democrats in congress that didn't step up and condemn him is the shame of our country.

You're mistaken on that point. Joe Liberman condemned Clinton for his behavior. He was very outspoken about that issue.

Sorry, I was only refering to those that didn't, Joe Liberman did and I commend him for it.

Too bad we couldn't have switched the ballot to Liberman/Gore. He would bring some dignity back to the White House. I might not have switched from Democrat to Republican!!! No! I couldn't honestly say that, I think Colin Powell had as much to do with converting me as anyone. I would have loved to see a ballot with Colin Powell on it. Of course no way that could have happened, still too many bigots out there, too bad. Maybe next time! Who knows?

A letter, from Colin Powell.

"In the life of nations, great turning points and pivotal elections are not always obvious at the time. Circumstances change, politics is full of surprises, history is unpredictable. But for many reasons, November 7, 2000 stands out with unusual clarity as a moment of decision..."

I am voting for our Republican team, and I urge you to do so as well.

We have offered a positive vision of hope, opportunity and common sense reform. We have forthrightly addressed the big issues: education, Social Security, access to quality health care for all Americans, tax relief, and a strong national defense.

Our team has not flinched from tough choices.

We have campaigned in a spirit of good faith, inclusiveness, and optimism. Our candidates have earned our enthusiastic support.

We must, however, guard against apathy. Please be sure you, your family, and your friends and neighbors get out and vote.

For a variety of reasons too numerous to discuss here, voter turnout in the United States in recent decades has been low and is declining. In fact, it is likely that barely half of the eligible voters will make the effort to get to the polls on November 7. I ask you to make a special effort to be among them. Don't think for a moment it doesn't matter. It does matter and you have an obligation to vote.

We have an extraordinary opportunity on November 7. The Cold War is over, but we need coherent and principled leadership for a rapidly changing world, and a military ready to deter war if possible and win decisively if necessary. We are committed to these principles.

At home, the economy is strong and the budget is balanced. A growing surplus provides the means to both cut taxes and finance important reforms. On education, Social Security and health care, our Republican team is right and our opposition is wrong.

On the social issues that have divided our nation for so long, we are committed to forge a bi-partisan approach to solving America's problems. We are committed to a future that leaves no one behind. We believe individual liberty is rooted in personal responsibility.

The moral dimension of leadership respects the moral and religious foundations of our Republic. We trust the American people to manage their own lives.

For all these reasons, it is important for each and every one of us to vote on November 7. We have as clear a choice as America has faced in at least a generation. Your vote does count. Please join me in helping elect our Republican team. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Colin L. Powell"

JimF

Thu 9th Nov '00, 5:12pm

I would have voted for Colin Powell in a heartbeat. I think he would win hands down.

I'm registered as an independent; I'm allowed to vote Republican if I want too ;)

-jim

Chris Schreiber

Thu 9th Nov '00, 5:18pm

Originally posted by JimF
I would have voted for Colin Powell in a heartbeat. I think he would win hands down.

Same here, I wasn't overly thrilled with either candidate.... this is only re-affirmed by such a close vote (the latest figures show only 400 votes between Bush/Gore in FL now, out of over 5 million cast).

-Chris

wajones

Thu 9th Nov '00, 5:38pm

Originally posted by JimF
I would have voted for Colin Powell in a heartbeat. I think he would win hands down.

I'm registered as an independent; I'm allowed to vote Republican if I want too ;)

-jim

I am a California resident and previously the Primary Elections required that you could only vote within your own party to select your parties candidate for the presidential election. Now that you can vote for anyone during the primary I could conceivably change to independent. I have never voted party lines in any Presidential Election. ;) As a Democrat I voted for Regan, Bush Sr., Clinton (Dang!).

Originally posted by Chris Schreiber
Same here, I wasn't overly thrilled with either candidate.... this is only re-affirmed by such a close vote (the latest figures show only 400 votes between Bush/Gore in FL now, out of over 5 million cast).

-Chris

I agree with that also, as much as Gore stands for everything I disagree with, I would rather see him win the election than go thru all the crap that is going to come out of this. I think the people have demanded a fair shake on both sides of the issues. Neither candidate will be able to force an agenda down anyone's throat.

It remains to be seen if we all win or we all lose!!!

[Edited by wajones on 11-09-2000 at 04:48 PM]

JimF

Thu 9th Nov '00, 6:01pm

http://a799.ms.akamai.net/7/799/388/1a68fecb3f67c7/www.msnbc.com/news/786306.jpg

"See, I told you I was gonna tell my daddy on you!!!"

;)

-jim

wajones

Thu 9th Nov '00, 6:11pm

http://www.gargaro.com/images/gorehead.jpg Thank You, Thank You, Mr. President

JimF

Thu 9th Nov '00, 6:13pm

Just for fun, check this out:

http://www.colonize.com/warp/index.html

:)

-jim

wajones

Thu 9th Nov '00, 6:20pm

Originally posted by JimF
Just for fun, check this out:

http://www.colonize.com/warp/index.html

:)

-jim

LOL, that is so funny, it almost locked up my computer.

thetakerfan

Thu 9th Nov '00, 6:25pm

If I was able to vote, I would definately be going for Gore. I see Bush as being a complete idiot, and he's lazy. Gore was still working hard and campaigning all through Mon night and Tues moring, while Bush was sleeping and resting.
And I personally don't give a damn about what Clinton did, nor do I think anyone should. Yeah, he had an affair, why should that affect any of us, its between him and his family. Yeah, he lied under oath, and THAT is wrong, but think anyone would have in that position, drop the subject already. While Clinton has been in office, the country is in the best shape its been in a very long time.
I'd also like to point out that I live in South FL, Dade County actually...so the whole delay is our fault :D

thetakerfan

Thu 9th Nov '00, 6:35pm

Originally posted by JimF
Just for fun, check this out:

http://www.colonize.com/warp/index.html

:)

-jim
lol, that was fun

Mike Sullivan

Thu 9th Nov '00, 6:36pm

Hmm... my dad found a Clinton warper thing somewhere. Ever seen Clinton with a HUGE afro? Mwwwahaha!

wajones

Thu 9th Nov '00, 7:30pm

Originally posted by thetakerfan
Yeah, he had an affair, why should that affect any of us, its between him and his family.

First of all he did it in the oval office, making it our business. Brought it into our living rooms thru the media, made the office of the president a laughing matter, no it's not just between him and his family. Should it be put behind us, yes, forgotten, no way! The man's a creep, use's women for his own pleasure and has no respect for the Office of the President. He should have been removed from office.

Yeah, he lied under oath, and THAT is wrong, but think anyone would have in that position, drop the subject already. While Clinton has been in office, the country is in the best shape its been in a very long time.
I'd also like to point out that I live in South FL, Dade County actually...so the whole delay is our fault :D

He lied under oath and got away with it, what kind of example is that. Your right anyone that did that probably would lie about it. Proves my point! Do you know what would happen to you if you lied under oath?

As far as the shape of the country, you can attribute that to the Republican Congress and Presdents Regan and Bush, Everyone needs to read their Civics book and be reminded how legislation gets put into law. It takes years to see results in the economy. For the Democrats to claim responsibility for that is really funny.

thetakerfan

Thu 9th Nov '00, 11:21pm

um, I do know how legislation works, I'm in AP American Gov't right now. Yeah, it takes awhile for legislation to pass, but not that long

wajones

Fri 10th Nov '00, 2:40am

Originally posted by thetakerfan
um, I do know how legislation works, I'm in AP American Gov't right now. Yeah, it takes awhile for legislation to pass, but not that long

Passing it is just the first step, even after it passes and the wheels are set in motion it can take years for the effects of a bad economy to turn around. Anyway, that's politics. No one can do it by themselves, when push comes to shove everyone has to give and take a little to make it work. Hopefully this election, if nothing else will open some eye's.

Aaron

Fri 10th Nov '00, 3:14am

Originally posted by WebStyles
Originally posted by Aaron
Womens rights?? What about a baby's right to live? On the day of conception, that baby is a living being, if women don't want the responsibility of a child, they should be responsible enough to prevent the conception of that child.

And when a woman gets raped or is an incest victim? I suppose that would be her fault as well? The government has no right to make that decision for anyone.

I agree that it is tragic that women do get raped and are victims of incest, but two wrongs don't make a right... Aborting a baby that is the result of a rape or incest basically transfers the penalty for the crime from the criminal to the child. That child never did anything wrong, it is, at that point in life, totally innocent and blameless. Abortion merely results in yet one more casualty. Instead of killing babies, why not enforce stricter punishment on the criminals committing the offences??

Like the government, the mother also has NO RIGHT to murder a child simply because it is inside of her body. The role of the government is to determine whether it is in fact murder, and deal with the situation accordingly. However, as we all know, the government does not currently consider abortion murder.

Origionally posted by JimF
One of the main reasons that a woman would abort a child is becuase they have no means of supporting that child. Maybe not emotionally, but monetarily. And that is usually because the father doesn't want to have to support the child.

Did you forget about adoption?? There are plenty of people out there willing to adopt a babies. Also, there is tons of government aid offered to single mothers every year. And once again, the child should not be forced to pay for the mistakes of the father.

Origionally posted by JimF
It must be all those anti-birth control republicans making all those babies and not paying for them. Then they say "HA HA! We're gonna pass laws that won't let you abort the baby".

That's totally ludicrous.

Origionally posted by JimF
Don't blame this on the women; if the men were smart enough, they would prepare accordingly. Don't punish the women because the man is lazy.

I never blamed it on women, I agree that the man shares equal responsibility in preventing the conception of an unwanted child. NOTE that I said EQUAL responsibility, in situations aside from rape... Naturally when it comes to the case of rape, the woman has no way of preventing conception. However, as stated before, two wrongs do not make a right, and the child should not be punished for the actions of the father.

Origionally posted by JimF
I do believe in not allowing abortions after a given amount of time; like I don't think that babies in the third trimester should be aborted, but prior to that, it should be the woman's choice.

Abortion is abortion, which ultimately, as far as I'm concerned, is murder. It is inconceivable that abortion in the 1st or 2nd trimester is any different from abortion in the 3rd trimester. No matter how you look at it, or try to justify it, in the end it all comes down to depriving a human being of life.

Origionally posted by JimF
Men making a law prohibiting abortions is like a bunch of men designing tampons for a living. It just shouldn't be done.

-jim

Men aren't the only ones making the laws, there are plenty of women involved in the process as well. And please, DON'T EVER trivialize the taking of a human life by comparing it to tampon design.

However, men (or women) performing abortions is like men (or women) playing God. It just shouldn't be done...

Zecherieh

Fri 10th Nov '00, 5:15am

All I know is that I have about three hours of sleep since monday (I worked graveyards monday night) and have not accomplished anything on my site since this all started.

I cant stop watching and praying that things will work out for the canidate that I support. Besides we are witnessing something today that will be a part of American history in a big way in the years to come.

JimF

Fri 10th Nov '00, 11:35am

Originally posted by Aaron
However, men (or women) performing abortions is like men (or women) playing God. It just shouldn't be done...

No, Men (or women) telling people what they can and cannot do with their own bodies is like playing God.

And you know, if Abortion is made to be illegal, it will still happen anyway. But it will happen in back allies, with coathangers instead of at a clinic with a licensed physician. Which would in turn put the MOTHER at risk. So prohibiting abortion would just be killing the mothers. And don't you dare say that that's ludicrous, because people drank during prohibition, and they use drugs now. And lord knows if the drugs people do now were controlled by the government like liquor is, there wouldn't be half as many drug-related deaths.

If you think that making abortion illegal is going to magically stop all abortions in this country, you are terribly mistaken. They will continue to happen, though much more dangerously.

as much as I respect the right to an opinion, Aaron's opinions are the exact reason this country will go to **** if Bush is elected.

-jim

wajones

Fri 10th Nov '00, 12:14pm

Originally posted by Aaron
I agree that it is tragic that women do get d and are victims of incest, but two wrongs don't make a right... Aborting a baby that is the result of a or incest basically transfers the penalty for the crime from the criminal to the child.

I am a christian, I am against abprtion, except in cases where the health of the mother is at stake, and in cases of and incest. Most major religions embrace that attitude, even some of the most strict. It is statements like you make that unfortunately make it sound cut and dry which it isn't. In these cases and only these cases it should be up to the mother to make the choice. Most viable religions embrace this attitude.

SonnetCelestial

Fri 10th Nov '00, 12:31pm

I support Jim F. I am prochoice because being so entitles those around me to their own opinion, be it prochoice or prolife. I respect prolifers and ask that they respect me in turn, although because of what they stand for this is most likely not going to happen. In my opinion, picketers are the most disrespectful people on this planet who just don't understand the simple law of respecting another's privacy. It is one woman's body we are dealing with and it is NOT ANYONE ELSE'S ASIDE FROM HERS. What she does to her body should not affect you because the baby has not separated from her body. Yes this baby may be the next president and I will not argue that abortion is ending a life. However, these are all hypotheticals and instead of being a president maybe this baby would be the next hitler. You NEVER know and you cannot justify stopping an abortion by saying this life may someday contribute positively to yours.

I agree that late abortions (when the cerebral cortex has devloped) should not be performed unless necessary since the child may be able to sense pain. However if one would research the stages of a fetus, you may be convinced that abortion during the trimester would not result in a horrible baby slaughter.

quoted from plannedparenthood.com

Claim: The 12-week fetus experiences pain.

Fact: At this stage of the pregnancy, the brain and nervous system are still in a very early stage of development. The beginnings of the brain stem, which includes a rudimentary thalamus and spinal cord, is being formed. Most brain cells are not developed. Without a cerebral cortex (gray matter covering the brain), pain impulses cannot be received or perceived. Additionally, experts find that newborns at 26-27 weeks’ gestation (24-25 weeks’ fetal age) who survive have significantly less response to pain than do full term newborns.

Statement on Pain of the Fetus
We know of no legitimate scientific information that supports the statement that a fetus experiences pain early in pregnancy.

We do know that the cerebellum attains its final configuration in the seventh month and that mylenization (or covering) of the spinal cord and the brain begins between the 20th and 40th weeks of pregnancy. These, as well as other neurological developments, would have to be in place for the fetus to receive pain.

To feel pain, a fetus needs neurotransmitted hormones. In animals, these complex chemicals develop in the last third of gestation. We know of no evidence that humans are different.

I do support that the women be responsible and that we highly suggest that she and/or her partner use contraceptives. However contraceptives are not always fool proof nor are they always a choice for every woman (medical reasons being one factor). I do not advocate constant abortion (many times a year for many years) but I do feel better knowing that the woman has an option.

I know no matter how much I say there will always be people who are too deep seated in their beliefs to think otherwise. All I ask of them is A) to respect our decisions and b) to keep out of our private lives. Although this is very mean of me I always am tempted to throw tomatoes at abortion picketers. It's just plain wrong to force yourself onto someone else's business and to me that is exactly what they're doing. It's wrong to change someone's opinion to fit your own. It just plain is no matter how "good" your cause.

[Edited by SonnetCelestial on 11-10-2000 at 11:40 AM]

SonnetCelestial

Fri 10th Nov '00, 12:40pm

BTW to clarify once again..I respect prolifers and if they can respect my decision, WONDERFUL. I am happy we can reach an agreement in one aspect and I will not be angry or sour at all that their opinions differ from mine. I am just dismayed at picketers and how they cannot learn to respect those with different opinions and that in their viewpoint they are not killing a person and are ending a lifeform that has not developed into a person.

JimF

Fri 10th Nov '00, 12:43pm

Originally posted by SonnetCelestial
I support Jim F.

Woo hoo! Maybe I should have run for office... ;)

Seriously, if a baby can be extraced from the mother, and not survive on its own, then by no means is that ending a life - it's just not starting one. There's a huge difference. If the baby can live on its own after being taken out, than it is TOO LATE IN THE PREGNENCY, and that is KILLING the baby.

You can't kill something that's not alive.

Truth be told, if I were to irresponsibly make a woman pregnant, and she decided to have an abortion, I would be dead-set against it. It would be her choice, since she's the one who has to carry it for nine months. But I would not want what would be my child to be aborted. That's the way I feel. I am entitled to that right to choose - and so should be women.

People falsely equate "Pro Choice" to being "Pro Baby Killing". That couldn't be farther from the truth. Being Pro-Choice simply means that you want to preserve what should be a fundamental right.

I'm pro-choice, but I'm pro-life.

-jim

thetakerfan

Fri 10th Nov '00, 2:33pm

ludicrous
I like that word...

wajones

Fri 10th Nov '00, 2:36pm

I think that the fundamental freedom that we enjoy in the USA is the freedom of choice and the right of assembly to voice our views.

Being a Vietnam veteran one of the worst things I personally had to endure was the demostrators. But that was their right, We get crazies on both sides of every issue, but the right to protest what you think is wrong is a fundamental right, but I do not support those that break the law or infringe on the rights of others.

What it really comes down to is that we are ultimately responsible for our own actions, I have seen un-born aborted babies, that were supposed to be non-human beings thrown into a basket in a hospital, moving, kicking and crying. Tell me they do not feel pain, not aware of their surroundings, not human beings and I'll tell you you are wrong. Go watch! then come back and tell me different!

I will not comment on this again. Thank you all for the discussion...

P.S. I didn't volunteer for Vietnam, I didn't sanction it or protest it. So lets not go there, I mentioned it just to reference the protestors rights.

[Edited by wajones on 11-10-2000 at 01:51 PM]

JimF

Fri 10th Nov '00, 3:38pm

wajones, happy veterans day, and a much deserved thank you :).

Oh yeah, that reminds me. I think it's total BS that the overseas military absentee ballots are the last to be counted. The way I feel, these people are serving their country by putting their lives on the line for us. Even though it's a time of peace, tragedy can happen (USS Cole). I think the ballots of these people should be counted first and foremost. And only after they have voted, then the regular citizen's ballots should be tallied and applied.

I'm not a veteran, I just have a lot of respect for those who are, or are currently serving the country to maintain our rights.

wajones, thanks again.

-jim

SonnetCelestial

Fri 10th Nov '00, 4:07pm

wajones..

exactly. I think they ARE alive. I do not doubt the fact that when the sperm and egg unite that it creates a life form. You are right in feeling that it is horrible to see a baby being killed because if it looks like an infant and is after 7 months old, it most likely can feel pain. THAT is wrong and unless it is rape, incest, to save the mothers life or the mother was inexperienced I feel it should be a very rare incident indeed.

In general before the second trimester, the capacity to feel pain, to make a conscious movement (ie to kick because the baby wants to be known) is not developed and most likely not there. If I (heaven forbid) ever had to abort a child I would do so within the first month of discovering I was pregnant (in other words as soon as possible). I wouldn't wait on purpose to the last minute and I can tell I would be extremely paranoid if I had any suspicion I was pregnant. Unless it was an immaculate conception, I doubt any women would not suspect they were pregnant. That is why I support abortion but not late abortion without exceptions.

I love babies as much as the next woman, but when a) I cannot take care of it due to funding b) the contraception did not work c) my husband does not support having a child d) it's very very early (ie found out I was pregnant as soon as possible) I WANT my choice to say no and not have mr. president slap me in the face and say "HAHA sucks to be you". I won't even go through the turmoil of explaining to my family if, for instance I turn the word husband into fiance. Though I come from a very conservative background, premarital escapades with the one man I love is possible as long as it's protected. I am not christian although I believe in god and jesus (does that make sense?) and to the very best of my ability I try to respect those around me. But I also believe that each person can have his/her own opinion despite how deepseatedly opposed I am to that belief. Unfortunately I cannot always act calmly when someone does clinch on my freedom to believe what I deem is right. To impose total abstainence is too religious an act to force upon society. AGAIN, congress is imposing our own beliefs onto the populace and that is wrong. Plain wrong.

I now support Gore all the way (wish I voted cuz I didn't think I would make a difference. stupid stupid me even if i'm not a political buff). I do hope that by the miracle of goodness that gore wins so that I don't have to move to another country (and yes I am joking sorta).

I know the mommy's and daddys (including my own parents) look at bush and think he's got some good ideas. But like what JimF said, we are not living in an idealistic world. To make sex as illegal as drugs is asking for some serious trouble. It's fun (from what I've heard), it's a natural instinctive act, and to illegalize it is, I THINK the DUMBEST move by a president. And the scarey thing is...it just might happen!!!

I'm sorry... I think bush crossed the line on this one and I have to say that if he becomes president, I seriously would consider going to another place to see from afar how america weathers under his rule.

BTW I do appreciate your opinions, don't close this thread on account of my beliefs and no I am not angry just emotionally stirred up by the ballots. :) I of course would ask the same courtesy and not be called names and what not since I would most likely not pay attention towards those type of responses. This is supposed to be a discussion between adults (or mature teens) and of course I hope it stays that way. :)

[Edited by SonnetCelestial on 11-10-2000 at 03:38 PM]

SonnetCelestial

Fri 10th Nov '00, 4:09pm

oops and yes thanks for putting your life on the line for us. :)

Tis very much appreciated!

wajones

Fri 10th Nov '00, 4:13pm

Thank All, for the Veterans day acknowledgement. I too wish to thank all those Veterans out there that have served our country and make this very discussion possible.

[Edited by wajones on 11-10-2000 at 03:18 PM]

wajones

Fri 10th Nov '00, 4:33pm

SonnetCelestial

The babies I was talking about were less than 7 months in the womb. In fact many babies are born that are less that 7 months along. While all do not survive, many do and I would just like to see women to consider adoption. I have an adopted daughter and have had 32 foster children. There are so many families out there that want children.

I am not saddened for the children because I believe they were taken to their god before the age of accountability. I also feel the un-knowlegable young women are un-accountable, because the blame is on the shoulders of those that taught her wrong.

That's not directed towards you or any specific person.

SonnetCelestial

Fri 10th Nov '00, 5:24pm

I have never gone through a pregnancy so of course I'm not going to act like an expert on the stages we go through. However if let's say I was pregnant and it was because of rape, I myself would not willingly allow my child get through to such a late stage of development. But (I speak for myself not for others) if that baby has developd a brain and a heartbeat I will not abort based on my beliefs and ask to receive no publicity or overhyped THANKS from anyone. In addition the ONLY other people whom I believe should truly deserve an opinion on this situation are those who have been raped also and whom are close to the victims themselves (ie parents, friends, etc).

In any case, I agree with you on that extent and yes I when I am a mother would not want my child to be aborted when I can see little hands, a brain, and little feet. I only want it when the development has not reached that far (less than a month) and if what I mentioned in my other post holds true.

<digressing from a reply to a very personal account>
Welp, you might think I'm a bit extremist on this topic since I've rarely been so vocal on the vb forums. There's a reason for that and it's because I have been inches away from being physical raped. Let me tell you, it's nothing all that media **** can reproduce and it deserves much more than just some gentle condoling from anyone. It deserves respect, a great amount of privacy, and of course help WHEN asked.

There is a great deal of shame, turmoil and fear when a woman deals with unplanned pregnancy so don't ever EVER use a pregnant women, ESPECIALLY if they were rape victims as a soap box for your beliefs because if people do, people like me will rip them apart. I've seen sites that do that and after I ream the webmaster pounding in every inch of smoldering fact into their skul I usually don't get a reply. Fancy that! :)

So as long as you respect others and respect pregnant women, you can say whatever you believe! :)

Cheers!

[Edited by SonnetCelestial on 11-10-2000 at 04:29 PM]

wajones

Fri 10th Nov '00, 6:42pm

Originally posted by SonnetCelestial
I have never gone through a pregnancy so of course I'm not going to act like an expert on the stages we go through. However if let's say I was pregnant and it was because of ,

I as a man am truly sorry for any woman that has suffered such a crime as rape or attempted rape. I think that is a disgrace beyond anything I can think of, I will leave to your imagination what I would propose doing to such an individual that commited such a crime. As I stated previously I believe in such cases of rape, incest or medical reasons only the mother has the right to decide. I really can't justify why any proclaimed Christian/God fearing person would think otherwise. It's the obortion of convienience most people that I know and associate with are against. I do know of the extremes and the crule people on both sides. Unfortunately some of the extreme people are quite suspect in my opinion... you know the one's that fan the flames on both side's. They do not want this settled one way or the other, if it could ever be settled.

This is not a soap box, it's an appology for what happened to you and so many other women, it just so happens those are my beliefs and I stand by them. I do not go around preaching "pro-life", first I wouldn't want to be the one to cast stones. Just discussing, not condemning anyone. Since I am a father I do feel I have a right to speak up on the issue condemning those that would carry out such a crime as rape. I have a 15 year old daughter, believe me, I worry every day.

I really hate using "pro-life" I really don't want to be confused with their point of view.

[Edited by wajones on 11-10-2000 at 05:55 PM]

SonnetCelestial

Fri 10th Nov '00, 7:27pm

awww, that's fine wajones! :) I completely do not think you're an extremist and sometimes I do feel that the terms prochoice and prolife are way too stereotyped.

I do certainly feel angry when some women abuses her choice to abort and just ups and thinks it's a convenient way of disposing a child. If you're lazy and not willing to accept the responsibilty of contraception then that's your own fault. Besides abortions are very expensive (at least $200) and can be quite painful. Unless you are masochistic you most likely would not want to go through abortion if you don't have to.

Eh... I dunno. I guess I wish that people were more open about this so teens won't make this out at something "mommy and daddy" doesn't want you to do. In other words, something you can do to rebel against the evil parents. :P

Mage

Sat 11th Nov '00, 12:34am

Originally posted by WebStyles
And when a woman gets raped or is an incest victim? I suppose that would be her fault as well? The government has no right to make that decision for anyone.

Oh, so it was the baby's fault. I see.

Mage

Sat 11th Nov '00, 12:41am

Originally posted by JimF
[BAnd you know, if Abortion is made to be illegal, it will still happen anyway. But it will happen in back allies, with coathangers instead of at a clinic with a licensed physician. Which would in turn put the MOTHER at risk. So prohibiting abortion would just be killing the mothers. And don't you dare say that that's ludicrous, because people drank during prohibition, and they use drugs now. And lord knows if the drugs people do now were controlled by the government like liquor is, there wouldn't be half as many drug-related deaths.[/B]

Funny. I knew you were going to go for legalizing drugs the moment I started reading your message...

Well, I guess making homocide illegal isn't working out either. It's still happening. Maybe if we legalized it and set up standards, we'd be better off. Rules like in the old days. 7 paces and the like. At least that way both sides have an even chance, the families have a chance to say goodbye, and the people have a chance to get their affairs in order ahead of time.

Mage

Sat 11th Nov '00, 12:49am

Originally posted by JimF
Seriously, if a baby can be extraced from the mother, and not survive on its own, then by no means is that ending a life - it's just not starting one. There's a huge difference. If the baby can live on its own after being taken out, than it is TOO LATE IN THE PREGNENCY, and that is KILLING the baby.

Oh please. For one thing, if the baby is actually board, and you just snip the cord and leave it there, it isn't very well going to survive on its own either. Guess that woman that did that should be let free, as well as the mother that birthed into a airport toilet and took off. If it was life, it would've survived.

But the real reason I wanted to answer was that if you don't want the life to be born, then don't have unprotected sex. And don't give me the "rape and incest" routine. That's a fractional percent of the abortions that take place.

Mage

Sat 11th Nov '00, 12:54am

Originally posted by JimF
Oh yeah, that reminds me. I think it's total BS that the overseas military absentee ballots are the last to be counted. The way I feel, these people are serving their country by putting their lives on the line for us. Even though it's a time of peace, tragedy can happen (USS Cole). I think the ballots of these people should be counted first and foremost. And only after they have voted, then the regular citizen's ballots should be tallied and applied.

I'm not a veteran, I just have a lot of respect for those who are, or are currently serving the country to maintain our rights.

Jim, it's not like they've put all the military ballots in a box, sealed it, and said "Ha! We're not counting these 'til last!" :)

The only reason they haven't been counted yet is because they're still in the mail! The real mistake is that the laws in some states say they have to be postmarked by election day instead of in by election day. That means if you're stationed in "Middle-of-the-Jungle, S. Korea" and you send it out on election day, it's gonna be awhile before anyone sees it.

Hopefully, Florida and others will adjust the laws so the ballots have to be in by election day. I have a feeling that's just one of the many improvements we'll see for the system.