Legal issues again

[Mark Hewitt]

Had problems on our forums recently with someone reacting badly to some comments made on our forums about their organisation.

Bascially some were suggesting that a particular even this person was organising might not be all it seemed to be, and were picking faults with it wherever they could. I'm not sure anything libelous was actually said however we have had a reaction


people often think that the Internet is unlike any other form of media communication, well that’s not! When you place a comment on here you may as well be writing in a nation news paper! Your comments are legally accountable and the forum owners and administrators have legal obligation to up hold.

I fear that it will only be a mater of time before someone takes comments to far and the victim of the accusation will take legal action against them.

If that happens the distributor of such information “The Forum” will in itself face the majority of the action – just like a newspaper or magazine.

If a person posts something on the forum which is libelous and they get sued, well thats their own fault. But can we as the forum owners be dragged into this?

ps. I'm interested in the position of British Law. As US or laws of other countries cannot apply here.

[nuno]

i dont think so, Mark, IMO when a user registers at vB forums the should read Forum Rules more carefully. (its not yada yada as ppl may think)
In fact i was just reading your forum rules this seems pretty clear to me:

All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of Motorsport Forum or Jelsoft Enterprises Limited (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.

if they dont abide by the rules, then just HIT CANCEL and GO AWAY!!

[centris]

Post in your announcements on every forum this text;

You will not post, provide a link to, or transmit:
(a) any material which is unlawful, threatening, abusive, malicious, defamatory, obscene, pornographic, blasphemous, profane or otherwise objectionable in any way.
(b) any material containing a virus or other hostile computer program.
(c) any material which constitutes, or encourages the commission of, a criminal offence or which infringes any patent, trade mark, design right, copyright or any other intellectual property right or similar rights of any person which may subsist under the laws of any jurisdiction.

(d) The Administrator and Moderators reserve the right to remove any post, link etc. that is deemed inappropriate from this Forum without notice. We do not allow links to Warez, Adult or illegal MP3 content.

(e) Possible Legal action; Members are reminded that they are the copyright holder of any/all content of posts made on these forums. Any member who deems this content to be libel shall in the first instance contact the Administrator and draw his/her attention to the offending post.

(f) Responsibilities and actions; The administrator shall contact by whichever means deemed appropriate the author of the offending post and inform him/her that an objection has been raised and the reason for deletion. The member shall also be reminded at this time that should a further incident occur, then the member will be banned from the forums. The forum owners shall be allowed a reasonable period of time to respond to the objection. This will end the involvement of the forum owners. Should a member subsequently decide to raise an action against another member, the owner shall, as directed by the relevant law authority, provide legal testimony as required.

(g) By posting on these forums you agree to the above conditions.

[chrispadfield]

Just because you write a notice like that does not mean it has any standing in law. If you go into a restaurant and they say, "eating here is at your own risk, we can not be held responsible for x,y and z" and they give you food poisioning because they have rats in their kitchen then you can sue them whatever they clause stated.

There have been cases where the people controlling the content are sued. This will only happen once they have been informed of the posts (you can quite happily claim that you do not read all the posts but once they point them out to you that is a different matter) but if you decide not to remove them you can be held liable.

As mark is in the UK, UK law might apply but it really depends. For the UK case that is relevant check out Demon Internet v someone (can't remember). Demon refused upon notification to refuse various posts from their newgroups and had to pay this guy compensation after a court case.

[nuno]

Originally posted by chrispadfield
Just because you write a notice like that does not mean it has any standing in law..........

i guess its yada yada after all, so, *SUG* for v3.0, ditch Forum Rules, its YADA YADA :D

[chrispadfield]

no, the rules tell your members what you allow and what you do not allow, and thus explain to them what will happen if they break your rules. What the rules do not do is protect you from legal prosecution if someone breaks a law and you do nothing about it.

[centris]

There have been cases where the people controlling the content are sued. This will only happen once they have been informed of the posts (you can quite happily claim that you do not read all the posts but once they point them out to you that is a different matter) but if you decide not to remove them you can be held liable.

I believe that point is well covered in section (f). If the owner refuses to delete the post then yes he may also be deemed liable. This part IS IMPORTANT; whither you agree with the aggrieved member or not you MUST DELETE the post.

The terms set out the procedure for complaints and states the responsibilities of both members and owner.

[chrispadfield]

Originally posted by centris


I believe that point is well covered in section (f). If the owner refuses to delete the post then yes he may also be deemed liable. This part IS IMPORTANT; whither you agree with the aggrieved member or not you MUST DELETE the post.

The terms set out the procedure for complaints and states the responsibilities of both members and owner.

I don't think it really makes any difference. For sure you can ask the member to delete the post but if he refuses or his email bounces etc then it would be your responsibility to delete the post. If you didn't then you can be held liable. This does not mean the original poster can not be as well but the issue here is if the owner of the site can be, and case history shows they can.

[Moggy]

To me that’s sounds like suing the owner of a toilet wall that has been graffiti’d. :rolleyes:

I don’t know much about the law so I cant give any legal advice (well I can but you would be mad to listen to it ;) ). It seems daft to me that the admin is accountable. Its not like a newspaper at all. Anything that is written in a newspaper is written or looked at by the editor. It’s the editors responsibility to edit out slander etc. All the writing in a newspaper is written by employees of that company (except the letters page ;) ) so its obvious that the newspaper has to take responsibility for whats written.

A BB though is more like a conversation in a pub or a bar except for in text form. And surely anyone who posts something nasty about a company is the one that should be sued (I don’t think even they should because its an opinion but what I think doesn’t matter :D ).

[chrispadfield]

Originally posted by Moggy
To me that’s sounds like suing the owner of a toilet wall that has been graffiti’d. :rolleyes:

I don’t know much about the law so I cant give any legal advice (well I can but you would be mad to listen to it ;) ). It seems daft to me that the admin is accountable. Its not like a newspaper at all. Anything that is written in a newspaper is written or looked at by the editor. It’s the editors responsibility to edit out slander etc. All the writing in a newspaper is written by employees of that company (except the letters page ;) ) so its obvious that the newspaper has to take responsibility for whats written.

A BB though is more like a conversation in a pub or a bar except for in text form. And surely anyone who posts something nasty about a company is the one that should be sued (I don’t think even they should because its an opinion but what I think doesn’t matter :D ).

But that is the point, sure you can claim ignorance if the forum is unmoderated but if it is specifically brought to your attention that the post is there then you have a duty to remove it. I would imagine the same thing applies to a toilet. If in a burger king restaurant someone had write "mac donalds use seagulls to make their meat" on the toilet wall and mac donalds asked them to remove it and they refused I would think Mac Donalds would be able to sue them.

[s.molinari]

This is a very interesting conversation. So I'll add my 2p.

I just read about a case that went to court in Germany and it went like this.....

Mr. A wrote a very deragatory thread about a company Firm X and it's owner Mr. B. Mr. B sued the board owner (Mr. C) and Mr. A for Mr. A's remarks. The court said neither Mr. A nor Mr. C were liable, because, and get this, Mr. B did not ask Mr.A or Mr.C to take back the comments or delete them. So if Mr. B had asked for the removal of the comments and neither Mr. A nor Mr. C had followed through, then Mr. B would have had a case. The court also said that Mr. B would have had a case with or without a moderated board if he had simply asked for the removal of the thread. So in the end, if you have a Mr. B asking for a deletion of a deragatory thread then just do it. :)

Scott

[chrispadfield]

exactly :) Of course people are still allowed their personal opinion which is why xyzsucks.com are allowed to exist (in most cases). I am involved in one of these cases now but not through a forum and of course you can not be sued if what you say is the truth.

[tubedogg]

Not that any of you care but this is why America is great :D This is no longer an issue. (See the case of the FL woman vs. AOL...at least I think that was the case...AOL was not responsible for message board content hosted by it, even though it had been informed of its' existence.)

[nuno]

then if a board is being hosted inside the US, US laws will prevail right, even if the guy is from UK?

[JWB]

I added this to my registration agreement, so that I could use the post in anyway I please, however it may make me more liable, what does everyone think?


By clicking the Agree button, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

You agree that any post you make becomes property of the All Forums Network. The owners of All Forums Network have the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.

[dreamwatch]

I'm very interested by this discussion, and a little frightened too! :o

I have a forum on my wedding board at the moment with a sticky thread encouraging women to post about shops they have had good and bad experiences in. They are a sensible bunch, and I have asked them to not just say "That shop is crap" but to actually give good reasons as to why their shopping experience was poor. In light of what I'm reading, I find it worrying that people can't freely post their experiences in this manner without fear of litigation (for me or for them). My intention was to help people find the stores with best service, but it looks as if I may no longer be able to do that. :( Am I breaking laws by doing this? :confused:

If so, do you think I could still leave this thread up but perhaps with the stores names being removed? I could then maybe leave a post for people asking them to PM the poster in question for the name and address of the store in question?

[chrispadfield]

Originally posted by dreamwatch
I'm very interested by this discussion, and a little frightened too! :o

I have a forum on my wedding board at the moment with a sticky thread encouraging women to post about shops they have had good and bad experiences in. They are a sensible bunch, and I have asked them to not just say "That shop is crap" but to actually give good reasons as to why their shopping experience was poor. In light of what I'm reading, I find it worrying that people can't freely post their experiences in this manner without fear of litigation (for me or for them). My intention was to help people find the stores with best service, but it looks as if I may no longer be able to do that. :( Am I breaking laws by doing this? :confused:

If so, do you think I could still leave this thread up but perhaps with the stores names being removed? I could then maybe leave a post for people asking them to PM the poster in question for the name and address of the store in question?

not at all, it is perfectly fine to post opinions about companies so long you don't have posters saying "MacDonals fill their burgers with seagull meat" then you are going to be ok. If you read the ramblings at www.****edcompany.com for example you can see how much goes by before anyone does anything. There is clearly a difference between breaking this law and actually being sued for it.

[Mark Hewitt]

Originally posted by nuno
then if a board is being hosted inside the US, US laws will prevail right, even if the guy is from UK?

My board is hosted in the USA. But I'm in the UK and the the party who is complaining is also in the UK. So as the site is "controlled" from this country. I guess the physical location isn't so important.

Your right though that people are allowed to give their opinions. There are many programs on UK TV which specifically name companies and say what poor service they provide. However programs like Watchdog can do this as they have the entire weight of the BBC legal team behind them so nobody wants to mess.

The difference is that someone like myself who is only on low wages anyway cannot afford to defend a court case, even if it's pretty certain to go my way.

He also was trying to claim that some things written about him contained private details and he would also sue is because of that. :rolleyes:

[chrispadfield]

In the end it might be easier just to delete it. But don't feel like they are winning, instead set up a page completly forbidding the discussion of this particular person/company making it quite clear how pathetic they are without actually saying anything untrue. i remeber one forum that banned the discussion of a particular manufacturer at some point talking about it here.

[Mark Hewitt]

Ahead of you there Chris.

We've already banned discussion of the events this person is in charge of.

Don't get me wrong, 99% of the posts discussing this topic were just fine and they were a valuable contribution to the board, but having the threat of legal action means we cannot afford to be discussing that topic.

Doesn't bother me at all as we have plenty of traffic without it!

[nuno]

you sure he's from UK?

[Mark Hewitt]

Originally posted by nuno
you sure he's from UK?

Oh yes. He's not some random anonymous person!

[nuno]

hmm
lets say that you are from UK but living in US, and you have the party who is complaining is also from UK but also living in US.
In that case, which laws would prevail?

[Mark Hewitt]

Any countries laws do not apply as to where you are from but where you are.

If I go over to the USA and steal a car, do I get tried in UK courts, of course I don't!

As for servers I would think the law would see the server as being in the UK as it is controlled from the UK?

[nuno]

i really don't know Mark, this is too much confusing, it's even worse than math :D
I wish you the best of lucks Mark :)
laterz

[chrispadfield]

Originally posted by Mark Hewitt
Any countries laws do not apply as to where you are from but where you are.

If I go over to the USA and steal a car, do I get tried in UK courts, of course I don't!

As for servers I would think the law would see the server as being in the UK as it is controlled from the UK?

if the server is in the US i believe you come under US rules, e.g. COPPA applies to UK business if they have their servers in the US, that does not mean UK law dosen't apply as well however.. so confusing ;)

[aldamon]

Originally posted by JWB
I added this to my registration agreement, so that I could use the post in anyway I please, however it may make me more liable, what does everyone think?


The problem with vB's "agreement" is that it is not digitally signed. It is only a "gateway" to the next page. This poses another question: once you changed your registration agreement, did all registrants get grandfathered into the modified terms?

Something tells me that the "agreement" is hogwash.

[centris]

One of the legal folks here in the UK when questioned about the infamous RIP bill stated; If you move your e-mail to a server say within the US, the RIP bill which poses restrictions on ISP's here in the UK, has no jurisdiction in the US!

[Mark Hewitt]

Whats the RIP bill? :confused:

[centris]

Sorry my e-mail server is down and I only saw your question now. The RIP bill is The Regulation of Investigatory Powers Bill this bill introduced powers to allow a number of UK authorities to intercept Internet communications and to seize encryption keys used for the protection of such traffic and for the protection of stored computer data. There is a good link HERE (http://www.fipr.org/rip/RIPcountermeasures.htm) regarding the issues. However, to get back on topic, one of the ways round the RIP regulations was to base your e-mail server in another country where the regulations had no jurisdiction.

If your server is in the US, I think he would have to sue in that country as UK law might not apply.

Just found this story in the Register, Hot off the press
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/24352.html

[binary girl]

I know i'm dredging up a very old topic, but i thought people would be interested to know that you can get sued in the country where the person downloads your site. For example, if you have a site/forum that is based in the UK and someone from Australia accesses the website within Australia and finds something offensive they can sue you in Australia. This is only a recent development, as someone in Australia sued Dow Jones.

[poolking]

I know i'm dredging up a very old topic, but i thought people would be interested to know that you can get sued in the country where the person downloads your site. For example, if you have a site/forum that is based in the UK and someone from Australia accesses the website within Australia and finds something offensive they can sue you in Australia. This is only a recent development, as someone in Australia sued Dow Jones.

True.

Basically a web page is interpreted as "published" in the country that the webpage is viewed in.

So as already stated, your site is hosted on a server in the UK and someone for example in the US finds something offensive they find on the site and that person then can sue you and you would have to go to trial in the US.

[Bema Jinn]

That is more likely to cause more problems than releive them =/

Here's my recently updated agreement, Suggest anything you think i've missed


SquirrelSpit is like a pub. people express their opinions and other people comment.
None of these opinions Reflect the views of Squirrelspit, and as such are not held legally responsible for any opinions expressed on the Site or forums.

As Admins of Squirrelspit, we can Edit, delete, copy or move any topic we see fit, or we're just bored.

If any members post any trademarked or copyright images/files We are not held responsible, unless they are on the SquirrelSpit servers - in which case please contact an admin IMMEDIATELY!

All Members are responsible for their own posts, and Cannot be held against SquirrelSpit in anyway.

Now the legalities are out of the way, SIGN UP!

[f-a_org]

Just Ban the Companies I.P block, and Then Delete the post.

[poolking]

Just Ban the Companies I.P block, and Then Delete the post.

That way you run the risk of blocking innocent members who want to join up.

[JarekN]

I'd just let them sue me, and I'd make sure that they Friends would ensure that they and their lawyers wouldn't make it to the court...

Accidents really do happen:D

I must say that it seems that now days anything you say can and will piss someone off... WTF is going on??? The lawyers are making a killing by suing anyone for any stupid reason...

The law was made to protect us not to oppress us, the sooner people realise this and start doing something about it the quicker this BS will stop.

In Canada where we have the freedom or whatever they call it, the realisty is that you can't do/or say ****.... All you can do is work and pay your taxes...

Personal opinions can get you in trouble, your views and ideas can do the same.... I myself think that opinions/views etc should not be held agains anyone... no matter what it is... actions are a different story...

Had to vent about this, sorry, hehe

[Shining Arcanine]

then if a board is being hosted inside the US, US laws will prevail right, even if the guy is from UK?Extraterroritorality means that you are tried in your own country for the crimes you are accused of. US citizens have extraterroritorality in virtually every country in the world assuming that the local US embassy can save you from the local government.

If you are a UK citizen, you would probably be tried under UK law.


The problem with vB's "agreement" is that it is not digitally signed. It is only a "gateway" to the next page. This poses another question: once you changed your registration agreement, did all registrants get grandfathered into the modified terms?

Something tells me that the "agreement" is hogwash.
That is why I changed my agreement stating that I have the authority to read everything transmitted through the forums and can change the agreement at any time. Then I told everyone that if they do not agree with the changes, they can contact me and I will immediately terminate the person's account.

[bplinson]

Thread resurrection!!!

I just had a guy contact me demaning I remove any and all mention of his company from my forum.

Members on my forum have posted their experiences with this company and it is less than flattering.

I know that anyone can pretty much bring legal action against anyone but in this case would this guy have any chance of winning if my members are only commenting on their own experiences?

Also the guy who wants the threads removed is in the USA, I am Amercan but living in Germany, website is hosted on a server in the USA.

[Wayne Luke]

As always, the best way to find out your legal obligations in a case like this is to contact a lawyer.

[MRGTB]

If your asked to remove any comments posted by one of your members, I think you would be wise removing it. Or at least editing it to their pleasing.

Why bother arguing over a matter that could land you in court, when it takes two seconds to hit EDIT or DELETE.

And I agree, that too many people think their forum agreement protects them from what other people post. I would say the agreement is there for "YOU" to be seen enforcing it, rather than using it as an excuse to "hide behind" what others post - thinking it protects you legally.

I'm in total agreement that the board owner should be held just as responsible as the poster if he refuses to remove slander aimed at another person or company etc. It's the forum board owners duty to "respect a persons rights". And if they don't, they should be held equally responsible in my eyes.

And I'm glad most courts see it that way.

[jmurrayhead]

It's the forum board owners duty to "respect a persons rights". And if they don't, they should be held equally responsible in my eyes.

I must agree...if it's really that much of a problem, why argue it? Is the post really worth that much to the forum community? I'm guessing probably not. And with the new versions of vB...at least the editing history is recorded, if it is ever needed.

[motowebmaster]

I'm not an attorney, and can't comment on my past experiences, but can say that a little preparatory effort is worthwhile for any forum owner. Simply put, you never know until you ask.

vBulletin makes a decent effort to lay some basic ground rules, but all forum owners should create/maintain a set of guidelines that best serves their community and tie it to the registration process.

Of course users won't remember it, but it is easy and non-threatening to refer "challenges" to your custom rules. The most common response from the troublemakers is nothing more than negative comments about my "blank blank AUP" :rolleyes: