Should Jelsoft release a roadmap?

[Dream]

Let's make this right (in the right forum).

Do you want Jelsoft to release a roadmap or more info on upcoming releases?

Let's keep this a friendly feedback thread.

[bboy]

I definitely think they should be releasing a roadmap of sorts for their customers. I understand Jelsoft's point of view on this, howerver, as there are two immediate drawbacks to this:

1. "You promised it would out by now!" - Jelsoft doesn't want to face this kind of uproar from customers. But if Jelsoft makes it clear that these are tentantive roadmaps/timetables and that nothing is set in stone as with any application development projects then I think they should be ok.

2. Prying eyes of the competition. This is a point of concern for Jelsoft as they don't want to lift the veil on upcoming products and let their competitors know what new fandangled features they are rolling out. Not sure how they would address this issue.

Either way, I would like to know what's up and coming with vBulletin as I feel there is quite a disconnect between the customers and the vendor in terms of product roadmap. This kind of thing gets customers looking to other solutions from other vendors which isn't in the best interest of Jelsoft no doubt.

[ManagerJosh]

I'm just curious though, is there a point to having a duplicate thread?

http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246440

[merk]

1. "You promised it would out by now!" - Jelsoft doesn't want to face this kind of uproar from customers. But if Jelsoft makes it clear that these are tentantive roadmaps/timetables and that nothing is set in stone as with any application development projects then I think they should be ok.


A roadmap does not need dates.



2. Prying eyes of the competition. This is a point of concern for Jelsoft as they don't want to lift the veil on upcoming products and let their competitors know what new fandangled features they are rolling out. Not sure how they would address this issue.


Competitors' products are already ahead of vBulletin. The only reason this is even a point is because of how long Jelsoft takes to release updates to their products. (and I find it a pathetic excuse)

[Sysop9001]

What the sense that you have duplicate the thread?
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246440
This only confuse the users. There's already one, just add a poll for who like and needs.

[Paul M]

I think you are unlikely to ever get detailed roadmaps, but it certainly would be nice to get some sort of information occasionally.

Now that Blogs and Tools have been released, there is nothing, no information at all - just some hints that there will be a vb 3.7 sometime next year. :cool: For all we know they are all on an extended break in some tropical paradise. :D

I didn't even know that they had (at least) two new developers until I saw one post in the bugs area, and wondered who the hell it was - I think MI5 would be proud of the secracy level. :)

[Grover]

I didn't even know that they had (at least) two new developers until I saw one post in the bugs area, and wondered who the hell it was - I think MI5 would be proud of the secracy level. :)

I didn't even know, untill I saw this post of yours. ;) After a search, I found this (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=243904). Suprised there was no announcement on this, since there were announcements in the past when a new staffmember was brought into the team. Anyway, this is good news after all : hopefully it will improve the speed of development of the Jelsoft product-line.

[Jose Amaral Rego]

I would like a possiblities of addons that will or might be released within the near future and or a private poll by at least one third of members who own vBulletin to vote which they need to see release.


What the sense that you have duplicate the thread?
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246440
This only confuse the users. There's already one, just add a poll for who like and needs.
That was a great suggest to add poll and now your thread is closed :)

[DelphiVillage]

A roadmap does not need dates.



Competitors' products are already ahead of vBulletin. The only reason this is even a point is because of how long Jelsoft takes to release updates to their products. (and I find it a pathetic excuse)

you are pathetic saying things like that it's also not true there is no competitor not even a free one that is permitted to smell at vBulletins feet.When a security problem is found Jelsoft fixes it within 24 hours if not earlier.Give me the name of one competitor who is at the verry least twice that fast ? okey you can't ...If you don't like the way Jelsoft operates then pack your bags and leave i have about enough of you complainers for no valid reason

[Floris]

I've selected: I'm ok the way things are now. > just so I would be able to see the results of the poll, without having to click the link each time.

[Jose Amaral Rego]

you are pathetic saying things like that it's also not true there is no competitor not even a free one that is permitted to smell at vBulletins feet.When a security problem is found Jelsoft fixes it within 24 hours if not earlier.Give me the name of one competitor who is at the verry least twice that fast ? okey you can't ...If you don't like the way Jelsoft operates then pack your bags and leave i have about enough of you complainers for no valid reason

Merk is just blowing off steam and just wants more officals addons released. I hope he does not compare IPB addons to vBulletin, as those addons had security issues and were extremely buggy when first released.

[Sysop9001]

I would like a possiblities of addons that will or might be released within the near future and or a private poll by at least one third of members who own vBulletin to vote which they need to see release.


That was a great suggest to add poll and now your thread is closed :)
No problem for me, just to follow one, if the mod like that, it is...if the mod like an user than other, it is, what's the probs? ;)

[Sysop9001]

Instead of to close it (just after I ask to add a poll) http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1437557#post1437557
why not merge into this?
It erred it throw all those posts

Do not I see the motive of the closing, not even if we have time to losing for rewriting things.

It is my personal opinion but i believe too other ppl who are writing in the closed thread thinks to be merged the thread into this.

@ Particular Attention of Wayne Luke.

[Dream]

Can a mod change the thread name to "Should Jelsoft release a roadmap?"? I'm not a native english speaker, so there. I tried changing it but the time limit had expired. Thanks.

[Wayne Luke]

Can a mod change the thread name to "Should Jelsoft release a roadmap?"? I'm not a native english speaker, so there. I tried changing it but the time limit had expired. Thanks.
Changed for you.

[Fusion]

I doubt we'll ever see any real roadmaps. Hints, teasers, small 'nukes'@IRC (real or fake) yes. But nothing solid.
Don't hold your breath.

[---MAD---]

I think you are unlikely to ever get detailed roadmaps, but it certainly would be nice to get some sort of information occasionally.

Now that Blogs and Tools have been released, there is nothing, no information at all - just some hints that there will be a vb 3.7 sometime next year. :cool: For all we know they are all on an extended break in some tropical paradise. :D

I didn't even know that they had (at least) two new developers until I saw one post in the bugs area, and wondered who the hell it was - I think MI5 would be proud of the secracy level. :)
Totally agree.

[merk]

you are pathetic saying things like that it's also not true there is no competitor not even a free one that is permitted to smell at vBulletins feet.

IPB and phpBB are doing a great job at keeping up with vBulletin. I use neither - but both appear to be pulling ahead and both appear to be able to release feature updates quicker.


When a security problem is found Jelsoft fixes it within 24 hours if not earlier.

I am not talking about security updates.


If you don't like the way Jelsoft operates then pack your bags and leave i have about enough of you complainers for no valid reason

No valid reason? Are you sure? :rolleyes:

[StarBuG]

I really would like to see a roadmap for vBulletin and in addition to that a progress bar like how much percentage of the way to the next version is finished.
If it would be updated once a week or month that would be enough.

I think this would satisfy many customers even though it is still nearly as vague as it is now.

But a roadmap is a must

[BulletxxProof89]

I really think a Monthly Updated roadmap would inspire customers to renew... I know I'm feeling awfully uninspired :P

[Grover]

I voted for a monthly update, but it's not so important for me in what form things are communicated really. In the end, it is the communication itself what it is all about. Be it a roadmap, be it announcements, be it hints/feedback from devs inside postings...

Like I have said earlier here (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1436127&postcount=64) ....


I am an absolute fan of vBulletin. The past years however I have noticed that competitors like Invision seem to be on top of the game more... much of what is suggested to the developers overhere has been picked up by Invision it seems and implemented in their software.

So I can understand why some people are frustrated and are loosing their patience. My view is that Jelsoft is a great company with very friendly staff, it offers a fantastic product and not to mention a really really great customer-support. Really, the only thing that has worried me the past couple of years is the speed of development. Apparently Jelsoft has acknowledged these issues, but I am not quite seeing real progress on this as a customer.

Hopefully the aquirement by Internet Brands will be a good thing for the speed of development. I hope to be a lifetime customer, so hopefully we will see more improvements/addons to the software more quicker from now on?

... there is just one thing about this great product/company that I am worried about : the speed of development. That is the main critism I have. The issue of communication to the customers comes second to that, but it's not so important for me compared to the speed. However, since the development cycle seems to be so slow, better communication about the status of the product becomes more important to me.

And I don't know if people noticed but regarding communication to the customers, I have seen a change lately. There is one developer that really interacts with the customers overhere and that is Freddie Bingham. This kind of interactive communication is something I really missed the past couple of years, because we really didn't have a clue what was going on with the product. There were only the official announcements and I believe that is not enough for a lot of people. I very much appreciate the postings by Freddie and I wished more developers would interact/communicate with us , the customers, this way. Maybe through a developers-blog or something like that?

Good to see there are -apparently (we didn't see any announcement)- 2 new developers on board.

I hope my favorite bulletinboard will be on top of the game again, soon.

[Reeve of Shinra]

Yes, hats off to Freddie for letting us know if a requested feature will be included in the future and (where applicable) what version of vbulletin may be needed for it.

[Tailfeathers]

I think that only 15% of people being ok with the little information we get today should really say a lot to Jelsoft. We want to be kept updated!

[Mikhailtech]

indeed /signed

[BamaStangGuy]

IPB and phpBB are doing a great job at keeping up with vBulletin. I use neither - but both appear to be pulling ahead and both appear to be able to release feature updates quicker.

Are you on crack? It took phpBB 4 years to released phpBB3. :rolleyes:

I hate all this secrecy around vBulletin. It's annoying. vBulletin has released two add ons that cost money that I could careless about and vBulletin hasn't been updated in over a year and there is no telling when it will finally get an update. That's pathetic.

[l SKN l CHRIS]

I'm with you guys, I want news too.

[nwingate]

I bet you any one of the many LARGE FORUMS (http://www.internetbrands.com/ib/) that vBulletin's parent company owns has access to this info. It's quite the competitive edge that they now have! ;)

[BamaStangGuy]

Of course they have access to it. They own vBulletin and those forums :) heh

[nwingate]

Of course they have access to it. They own vBulletin and those forums :) heh
I know.... just pointing out that we are being left out in the cold but it's not like no one has access to the info and since they are competitors it hurts just a little more.

Questions like... do I spend thousands of dollars developing a new feature on my own or will the next version of vBulletin have it and when. I could be using that same money to advertise.

[Cowboysfan]

Having a roadmap would be great. If it were a monthly update, that would be nice, but just having something set up to where we know what is coming and what is being worked on woud me, as a consumer, much happier.

[briansol]

exactly. i don't need to know "when"... i need to know "if"


vb3........vb3.5.......... vb3.6.........blog......tools.........vb3.7 w/x y and z.... vb3.8..... vb4.0 semantic.


yes, if vb 4.0 comes out riddled with tables and javascript for no reason, i'm probably leaving it for something else. i'm tired of living in 2002-era code.

web 5.0 will be out before vb 4.0 at this rate

[stryka]

i too want a roadmap... and have asked for one... but VB has us where they want.... they know we dont want go anywhere else for a good forum and noone else is gonna take on the task of doing a usable addon like CMS when VB is always hinting about doing it themselves...

[nwingate]

At this point I'd consider it a success if they just told us if they are going to give us a road map or not. That would be some major steps forward in customer communication for vBulletin... ;)

I doubt we will hear anything but silence as usual of course.

[Tailfeathers]

Down to just barely over 10% now who are ok with how things are...


exactly. i don't need to know "when"... i need to know "if"


vb3........vb3.5.......... vb3.6.........blog......tools.........vb3.7 w/x y and z.... vb3.8..... vb4.0 semantic.


yes, if vb 4.0 comes out riddled with tables and javascript for no reason, i'm probably leaving it for something else. i'm tired of living in 2002-era code.

web 5.0 will be out before vb 4.0 at this rate
We've been waiting a whole looong time for the next minor release, 3.7---talking about version 4.0, considering how long we've waited for 3.7, is almost a joke.:p So sad yet true. I remember the days of pretty frequent releases...wish it was still kind of like that.


i too want a roadmap... and have asked for one... but VB has us where they want.... they know we dont want go anywhere else for a good forum and noone else is gonna take on the task of doing a usable addon like CMS when VB is always hinting about doing it themselves...
They should be careful considering that the longer they delay new releases, the more they're giving competitors to improve their products and steal vB members.

I left my last product because it was so rarely updated and had so many problems. Half the reason I came to vB was because of how frequently the product was updated and how many features it had. Someone posted the number of developers working on the vB product/its next release a while back. It was pathetically low. It seems that most developers are being told these days to focus on add-ons and thus the main product gets forgotten and ignored. Well...the longer this keeps happening, the more time vB gives other products to get better and better, and so who knows -- one thing is probably for sure though, and that's that if things keep going like this, and other products end up a lot better than vB, then people will indeed start switching. At this point vB still has the upper hand, but at this rate, this will change sooner or later. And a few small add-ons won't make much of a difference. The core product is always more important. I'll gladly accept add-ons, but not at the cost of the core product.

I'd also like to point one more thing out. I'm sure vB probably hates me (and others like me) who have been complaining over many months now about the lack of releases, lack of information, etc. I just want to make it clear that in a big way, this is quite a positive thing -- it shows how many of us love the product and want to see it get better and better. It shows that we know that there are many talented developers here that we know can create awesome things for our message boards. But it also shows that many of us (about 90% now, actually...) are not pleased about the lack of information and (I presume) the lack of releases.

In my opinion: we all came to vB because it had a great message board, not because it was a regular message board with a neat blog add-on.

[Fusion]

Down to just barely over 10% now who are ok with how things are...
Yes, although two of those are staff so it's really far less from shall we say.. unbiased voters.


We've been waiting a whole looong time for the next minor release, 3.7---talking about version 4.0, considering how long we've waited for 3.7, is almost a joke.:p So sad yet true. I remember the days of pretty frequent releases...wish it was still kind of like that.Agreed, I too wish for those days, but I also realize the versions from then 'til now are a tad more complex, so I'm inclined to grant them some leeway.
That said, as others as well as I have pointed out, it's been well over a year since any major development of their socalled 'flagship product' and that's stretching our patience rather thin.


They should be careful considering that the longer they delay new releases, the more they're giving competitors to improve their products and steal vB members.

I left my last product because it was so rarely updated and had so many problems. Half the reason I came to vB was because of how frequently the product was updated and how many features it had. Someone posted the number of developers working on the vB product/its next release a while back. It was pathetically low. It seems that most developers are being told these days to focus on add-ons and thus the main product gets forgotten and ignored. Well...the longer this keeps happening, the more time vB gives other products to get better and better, and so who knows -- one thing is probably for sure though, and that's that if things keep going like this, and other products end up a lot better than vB, then people will indeed start switching. At this point vB still has the upper hand, but at this rate, this will change sooner or later. And a few small add-ons won't make much of a difference. The core product is always more important. I'll gladly accept add-ons, but not at the cost of the core product.Thank you, I couldn't have said it better myself.


I'd also like to point one more thing out. I'm sure vB probably hates me (and others like me) who have been complaining over many months now about the lack of releases, lack of information, etc. I just want to make it clear that in a big way, this is quite a positive thing -- it shows how many of us love the product and want to see it get better and better. It shows that we know that there are many talented developers here that we know can create awesome things for our message boards. But it also shows that many of us (about 90% now, actually...) are not pleased about the lack of information and (I presume) the lack of releases.
Indeed. I think we'll see as time progresses and more people vote that percentage will grow to the upper half of the 90s.

[---MAD---]

Heres a very good example (IMO) of good communication:
http://forums.invisionpower.com/index.php?showtopic=237810&st=0&#entry1510655

A customer asks about the future of IPB, he gets a reply after a few minutes from management themself responding directly at the question and giving details.

I found that after a 5 minute visit to IPB corporation forums.

[kafi]

I think Jelsoft is killing the business enviroment around their product.
Instead of inviting third parties to build on their pruduct they try to outcompete them with their add-on.
I like that they are building add-on, but why not those that are needed. There was nice blog solution in the works from Sir Adrian and instead of focusing on core or other add-ons they jump on fruity add-on and lost the pace of their core.
Either they should work on more fields or focuse at only one.

I like the roadmap idea, because we are left in the lack of information and I even think this should be public information - at least for third party programmers that can start their add-ons according vb plans.

Imagine if we have to wait for all products from Microsoft instead of having 3rd parties to build them up...

[BamaStangGuy]

It is very discouraging to hear rumors that 3.7 won't appear till next year. That's pathetic. 3.6 came out over a year ago and it was a minor update. 3.5 was the big update which was even longer. So we are looking at what, 2 years since a major update with no kind of indication of when the next one will come?

I just looked and 3.5 came out Oct 15, 2005

How pathetic is that. Especially since this ib merger was suppose to make everything better. Who here has noticed ANY change?

[ManagerJosh]

It is very discouraging to hear rumors that 3.7 won't appear till next year. That's pathetic. 3.6 came out over a year ago and it was a minor update. 3.5 was the big update which was even longer. So we are looking at what, 2 years since a major update with no kind of indication of when the next one will come?

I just looked and 3.5 came out Oct 15, 2005

How pathetic is that. Especially since this ib merger was suppose to make everything better. Who here has noticed ANY change?
One change is John isn't with us anymore :(

*sniff*

[Steve Machol]

How pathetic is that. Especially since this ib merger was suppose to make everything better. Who here has noticed ANY change?
I'm not going to get too involved in this discussion, but one major change is that we have added two new Developers in the last couple of months. Percentage-wise this is a major increase in development capacity. However as one should expect it does take a while for new Devs to become familair with the code and get up to speed.

[merk]

I'm not going to get too involved in this discussion, but one major change is that we have added two new Developers in the last couple of months. Percentage-wise this is a major increase in development capacity. However as one should expect it does take a while for new Devs to become familair with the code and get up to speed.

I find it odd that there was no announcement about this (as do others). But I'm sure most of us are grateful that you are hiring new developers to hopefully make headway in improving your flagship product :)

[Andy Huang]

I find it odd that there was no announcement about this (as do others). But I'm sure most of us are grateful that you are hiring new developers to hopefully make headway in improving your flagship product :)

I'm not going to get too involved with the discussion too; but here's the announcement for hiring: http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229100

And as with all personnel related announcements, announcements usually don't get made until they're through with the trial period and then some ;) I'm sure you will see more details about the two new developers soonâ„¢.

Fine print: soonâ„¢ is an undefined time frame.... etc. for 20 some odd pages that no one wants to read :P J/K Just no defined time frame, but will be announced when ready :)

[l SKN l CHRIS]

Heres a very good example (IMO) of good communication:
http://forums.invisionpower.com/index.php?showtopic=237810&st=0&#entry1510655

A customer asks about the future of IPB, he gets a reply after a few minutes from management themself responding directly at the question and giving details.

I found that after a 5 minute visit to IPB corporation forums.

thats awesome, jelsoft would gain more respect from me if they treated customers that way

[BamaStangGuy]

I'm not going to get too involved in this discussion, but one major change is that we have added two new Developers in the last couple of months. Percentage-wise this is a major increase in development capacity. However as one should expect it does take a while for new Devs to become familair with the code and get up to speed.
I'll give you that. However, from the customers stand point it seems like nothing is really moving foward. Just a bunch of promises with no end in sight when those promises will be fullfiled. Especially if it is still going to take until sometime next year to get 3.7 out the door and even longer for a good solid overhaul, that is much needed imo.

[ManagerJosh]

Again, I think there needs to be a compromise on both sides here. I respect Jelsoft wants to keep things closed but at the same time we'd like to know what's coming up. We need to be able to allocate funds if we want additional software.

[Jose Amaral Rego]

It is very discouraging to hear rumors that 3.7 won't appear till next year. That's pathetic. 3.6 came out over a year ago and it was a minor update. 3.5 was the big update which was even longer. So we are looking at what, 2 years since a major update with no kind of indication of when the next one will come?

I just looked and 3.5 came out Oct 15, 2005

How pathetic is that. Especially since this ib merger was suppose to make everything better. Who here has noticed ANY change?

I notice attitudes towards longstanding members have change... especially when the infraction system was impose quite freely. It is the mark of death to use that against helpful members. That is the major thing I have notice... Oh, I did see some new addon(s) beening release if anyone has miss the announcements. :)

[ManagerJosh]

It's great Jelsoft released addons, and both the blog and project tools have been both very useful. However, I think a few of us were hoping that certain future products would take priority (like a gallery or a CMS)

[Tailfeathers]

I'm not going to get too involved in this discussion, but one major change is that we have added two new Developers in the last couple of months. Percentage-wise this is a major increase in development capacity. However as one should expect it does take a while for new Devs to become familair with the code and get up to speed.
It wasn't so long ago that I saw a post about how many developers are working on vB itself (don't remember where or how many), but it was a very small number. I guess if two people get added to an extremely tiny team working on vB (if their resources did indeed go toward vBulletin and not more add-ons), then of course the percentage increase is going to be huge. That doesn't mean it's particularly a very large increase, though. These are just guesses though, considering how slow vB development has gone. At any rate, one thing is for sure -- with as many developers as the team does in fact have, the fact that releases are so slow means that the add ons are getting severe preference.

To be reminded that 3.5 was released over two years ago and we've thus had nothing more than minor releases in all that time is really quite pathetic and discouraging!

To be honest, it sounds like Jelsoft has gotten greedy. They realized they had a very large, dedicated customer base for vBulletin, so it's like they said, "hey, let's redirect all our focus on releasing other products; that way, we'll make even more money by reaching new customers and also current customers with new products while at the same time not losing all those main product suckers who don't care about waiting forever for updates since we're the best they have anyway." I really hope that this thread is a wake up call that people aren't pleased (and it's certainly not the first thread either).

When I paid for vBulletin, I paid for that product. When I keep renewing vBulletin, I am renewing that product. I am not paying the company to work on other products that I won't benefit from at the cost of the product I have been paying for. Doing it as a side thing while still focusing on the main product? Sure -- I have nothing against vBulletin expanding into other areas. Doing it at the cost of the main product so that we keep seeing add ons, add on updates, etc. being released at a point in time when it's been over 2 years since a semi-major vBulletin release? Not cool.

[DelphiVillage]

well well,

I see nothing but complaints about jelsoft being slow.Can jelsoft do anything good for you complainers ? if they release updates to fast after eachother then the same complainers are here again to nagg about the fact they loose to much modifications (templates that have to be reverted and sourcefile modifications etc) Now jelsoft did not updated vBulletin except for a security related fix recently in quite a while again the complainers are here to complain the product isn't updated frequently enough.I guess some folks need to make there mind and decide what they want.I would be indeed nice if jelsoft told us there customers what they are doing and what we may exspect on vBulletin in the future but it's there choice to not provide that kind of information and to be honest all you complainers are not motovating jelsoft to change it's mind either regardless what they do they always get a bunch of complainers complaining about stuff

i bet if they would announce vBulletin 3.7.0 is coming is next month then some idiot would be here complaining again he has to revert to much templates :D

[Wayne Luke]

To be reminded that 3.5 was released over two years ago and we've thus had nothing more than minor releases in all that time is really quite pathetic and discouraging!

vBulletin 3.6 was a larger release that 3.5 both feature and code improvement wise.

[---MAD---]

well well,

I see nothing but complaints about jelsoft being slow.Can jelsoft do anything good for you complainers ? if they release updates to fast after eachother then the same complainers are here again to nagg about the fact they loose to much modifications (templates that have to be reverted and sourcefile modifications etc) Now jelsoft did not updated vBulletin except for a security related fix recently in quite a while again the complainers are here to complain the product isn't updated frequently enough.I guess some folks need to make there mind and decide what they want.I would be indeed nice if jelsoft told us there customers what they are doing and what we may exspect on vBulletin in the future but it's there choice to not provide that kind of information and to be honest all you complainers are not motovating jelsoft to change it's mind either regardless what they do they always get a bunch of complainers complaining about stuff

i bet if they would announce vBulletin 3.7.0 is coming is next month then some idiot would be here complaining again he has to revert to much templates :D
Yes however that "idiot" is not forced to upgrade - thats the real difference ;).

[Jose Amaral Rego]

You do realize that the Dev's here are working on four (4) plus project, {vBulletin 3.7-SN, vBulletin 4.0, Project Tools and Blog} all at once. Maybe it would be more helpful if some of you step into thier shoes and see what it take into creating a secure product.

I rather have something that works smoothly, then be compliant to everything new that pops up.

[ChrisLM2001]

I rather have something that works smoothly, then be compliant to everything new that pops up.

Yep, I would too, as this isn't smooth. Nope, not at all...


<tr valign="top">
<td class="alt2" width="175" style="border: $stylevar[cellspacing]px solid $stylevar[tborder_bgcolor]; border-top: 0px; border-bottom: 0px"

Deprecated align tag. No central CSS. And woe if you change the table cellspacing globally.

How about the roadmap to get that mess fixed?

[Razasharp]

I think a roadmap would be great - especially for the more serious customer who needs to know what functionality they can expect from the stock vB. It would help us in making decisions for our sites, eg, shall we get a blog, if so shall we wait for Jelsofts own or not.

By having this info I think many people would opt to wait a little longer for an official plug-in rather than jumping ship. A roadmap covering the proposed spec, features and functionality etc would be ideal, with them getting marked/updated as and when.

It's good to hear that there are two new coders on the team. I really do hope 3.7 comes out this year (not sure I can hold off much longer tbh). It's going to include some important functionality that I really need for my sites (I hope posting threads to multiple categories makes it).

[Andy Huang]

Yep, I would too, as this isn't smooth. Nope, not at all...


<tr valign="top">
<td class="alt2" width="175" style="border: $stylevar[cellspacing]px solid $stylevar[tborder_bgcolor]; border-top: 0px; border-bottom: 0px"

Deprecated align tag. No central CSS. And woe if you change the table cellspacing globally.

How about the roadmap to get that mess fixed?
Deprecated only in Strict. vBulletin's default is Transitional, and as far as I am aware of, there are no validation issues other than the one they changed recently about html tag must have xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" attached to it.

As previously mentioned, this is to be addressed in the next major version release.

Also, style is completely customizable. If you're not happy with the style not being Strict to suite your needs, feel free to edit it. No one is stopping you to do so.

Lastly, roadmap tells people what features to expect. Bug tracker tells people what bugs are being fixed. Don't get confused and let the technical jargons go over your head and drown you. Think simple ;) There is already a bug tracker available: http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/project.php If you notice a bug, such as validation failure, please by all means search there to see if there is already a record about it being fixed, and make a new report if there isn't.

[Freesteyelz]

It is very discouraging to hear rumors that 3.7 won't appear till next year.


If that is the case then I'm expecting something nuclear-powered. :D

[0ptima]

I'm not going to get too involved in this discussion, but one major change is that we have added two new Developers in the last couple of months. Percentage-wise this is a major increase in development capacity. However as one should expect it does take a while for new Devs to become familair with the code and get up to speed.

This should have been done years ago.

[0ptima]

You do realize that the Dev's here are working on four (4) plus project, {vBulletin 3.7-SN, vBulletin 4.0, Project Tools and Blog} all at once. Maybe it would be more helpful if some of you step into thier shoes and see what it take into creating a secure product.



I doubt they are working on 4.0, they have to much on their plate.

[Reeve of Shinra]

I've been curious about that -- is 4.0 being worked on at the same time 3.7 is it one step at a time?

DelphiVillage: Its obvious that you are okay with the way things are so lets just agree to disagree and keep this thread positive. thanks

[ManagerJosh]

This should have been done years ago.
That would be true, if the premise that Jelsoft also had the funds to pay for two more developers. However, there's nothing to validate this except for indirect evidence.

[Dream]

I have to confess I don't know what a roadmap is. But knowing what features 3.7 will have would be nice.


When I paid for vBulletin, I paid for that product. When I keep renewing vBulletin, I am renewing that product. I am not paying the company to work on other products that I won't benefit from at the cost of the product I have been paying for. Doing it as a side thing while still focusing on the main product? Sure -- I have nothing against vBulletin expanding into other areas. Doing it at the cost of the main product so that we keep seeing add ons, add on updates, etc. being released at a point in time when it's been over 2 years since a semi-major vBulletin release? Not cool.

A LOT of people asked for those add-ons. I don't know how much resources they have put into them and if they were subtracted from the main product, but I also don't know if the main product was being worked on at all, if a feature set or optimization was decided for it or not. Not that I personally need this information, as vb does pretty much everything I need. More information would be very nice, but I won't die if I don't have it.

Now that they have Project Tools it should be much easier for them to track and evaluate feature requests. I don't know how it was done before, maybe they had a hidden system.

[Dream]

On the reasons why Jelsoft does not disclose any info, I think it should learn how to deal with excited customers without having to keep everything secret. I think it does it more harm than good not disclosing info on to where they are heading and what their plans are. If I had a software company I would have no problem with stating ETAs and also saying they are not final in bold letters for everyone to understand. Also with a disclaimer that if you rely on those ETAs that's the customer's responsibility, and not the company's.

[Jose Amaral Rego]

Project Tools was/is suppose to be the roadmap to what needs to be implemented to future products, but you can not follow it as it does not have a status bar. You only know once the product is release and it is then you would know if it has been added.

I know that is why I use a free project version that shows time spent on developing of what ever I am engage into.

[ManagerJosh]

Project Tools can act like a roadmap if a new version development is actually listed

[Fusion]

Project Tools can act like a roadmap if a new version development is actually listed
I'm pretty sure there's at least one layer of the Project Tools we aren't allowed to see, and this could easily be an implementation of their in-house roadmap.

[ChrisLM2001]

Lastly, roadmap tells people what features to expect. Bug tracker tells people what bugs are being fixed. Don't get confused and let the technical jargons go over your head and drown you. Think simple ;)

And that type of crappy mentality has no bearing here. I've used the backtracker for CSS flaws I've found, and the end result, is about what you displayed here. A piss poor attitude that goes nowhere.

Time for the sideshow crap to stop. Style and design is an equal part of the whole equation now, either move along with the times, or kill vBulletin on it's own petard.

[Grover]

You guys wouldn't do that to programmers, it's time to show the same respect to designers...


And that type of crappy mentality has no bearing here. I've used the backtracker for CSS flaws I've found, and the end result, is about what you displayed here. A piss poor attitude that goes nowhere.

Time for the sideshow crap to stop. Style and design is an equal part of the whole equation now, either move along with the times, or kill vBulletin on it's own petard.

One of life's lessons is this : if you want someone to show you respect, you need to show them your respect too.

I you have complaints about vBulletin and have suggestions how to improve it : by all means share it overhere. But please try to approach people (in this case the developers and staff) with at least some respect.

As a long-time customer and contributor to the Suggestions and Feedback forum of this great product I often find myself feeling 'uneasy/uncomfortable' reading your feedback. Why are you acting so aggressive/angry? Do you realize that this attitude overshadows the feedback you actually want to share and therefor it will probalby not reach very far?

Please, I kindly ask you to take this into account so we can discuss our favorite forumsoftware in a respectfull, enjoyable manner. Thanks.

[ChrisLM2001]

One of life's lessons is this : if you want someone to show you respect, you need to show them your respect too.

Learn another life lesson: don't judge a book by it's cover, as you'll be patently wrong.

And again, this isn't about me, it's about vBulletin. Nor is it an excuse for unprofessional behavior.

[Dream]

I think it has been stated web 2.0 is planned for v4 (which will be out in 5 years :p). I don't think it can be accomplished without major changes in the skinning system.

[ChrisLM2001]

The ability to make even simple HTML 4.01 Transitional changes in existing technology now, is hindered by the current template system.

Jelsoft was bought out by a larger company, and they claim they have more resources because of this acquistion. How about instead of hiring more coders, a qualified web designer that isn't chained and shackled by pre-conditions...which designers have faced from the beginning. Be it the restrictions with the old vbulletin-template forum (ONLY template edits, which meant styles reflected it, as the hardcode couldn't be touched); to what it is now -- web designers have to use bad form that wouldn't be tolerated in the programming community, just to style a forum.

Roadmaps are more than just what new plugin can come across the threshold. It's also a logical and practical template system, that not only isn't hacked code cobbled together, teaches good form.

No IE6 hacks? Pffft. Just look at all the hacking in the templates just to get a XHTML 1.0 Transitional display.

[Tailfeathers]

You do realize that the Dev's here are working on four (4) plus project, {vBulletin 3.7-SN, vBulletin 4.0, Project Tools and Blog} all at once. Maybe it would be more helpful if some of you step into thier shoes and see what it take into creating a secure product.

That' the point though -- or at least mine. They have put too much on their plates without adding enough staff, and on top of that, they're focusing too much on the add-ons than the main product.

[RvG]

vbulletiers! GO AND VOTE NOW!!! PLEASE!!! :)

[Jose Amaral Rego]

That' the point though -- or at least mine. They have put too much on their plates without adding enough staff, and on top of that, they're focusing too much on the add-ons than the main product.

If you seen that every 6 months members complain about something they want, instead of something that is needed. You notice it comes out within a couple of months of them working on it. From what I see is that 3.7.0 beta and or rc will be out within November 2007 or January 2008.

Alot of members wanted a addon release a little why back and got two. It is better to just wait for a product that will has no known security issues before releasing it.

I am just going to read and not reply, as it would not get things done any quicker.

[---MAD---]

That' the point though -- or at least mine. They have put too much on their plates without adding enough staff, and on top of that, they're focusing too much on the add-ons than the main product.
I dont think so. They only really made one addon. The project tools was meant to be for internal use to replace the old bug tracker but because quite a few people requested it to be released, they did. Many asked for the old bug tracker to be released at the time it was being used but I guess it wouldn't have been easy to get working like the project tools.

If you seen that every 6 months members complain about something they want, instead of something that is needed. You notice it comes out within a couple of months of them working on it. From what I see is that 3.7.0 beta and or rc will be out within November 2007 or January 2008.

Alot of members wanted a addon release a little why back and got two. It is better to just wait for a product that will has no known security issues before releasing it.

I am just going to read and not reply, as it would not get things done any quicker.
Yeah I think it will be out by december (beta/rc stages).

As for all the new features, they need to be plugins, as the ACP is getting convulted. Half the features I wouldn't use, yet half that code will be served in every page load regardless if used, and it's that much code to scroll over to make template edits.
I don't think it makes too much of a problem if you have a good server etc. Obviously if you have lots of traffic etc it makes a bigger difference. Having an addon for each feature would be ridiculous!

[ChrisLM2001]

I don't think it makes too much of a problem if you have a good server etc. Obviously if you have lots of traffic etc it makes a bigger difference. Having an addon for each feature would be ridiculous!

Not everyone running vBulletin will have a dedicated server, and the last time I checked it wasn't a requirement -- nor should it be. Plus, I wasn't referring to all addons to be plugins, but the major ones that wind up making their own entries in the ACP menu, and add gobs of code in templates -- it's already an eyesore editing them.

[Fusion]

If you seen that every 6 months members complain about something they want, instead of something that is needed. You notice it comes out within a couple of months of them working on it. From what I see is that 3.7.0 beta and or rc will be out within November 2007 or January 2008.

Alot of members wanted a addon release a little why back and got two. It is better to just wait for a product that will has no known security issues before releasing it.

I am just going to read and not reply, as it would not get things done any quicker.
The thing is, Jose, with vBulletin being their self-titled 'flagship product' and what we've ALL paid good money for, some repeatedly, some modicum of progress has to be expected, with timely releases in liu of an official roadmap. I do not think it is okay to accept that work is (seemingly) halted in favor of other projects, no matter how many people is asking for them.
Let me say that again, work on the main product should never, under any circumstances, be allowed to pause.

[---MAD---]

Not everyone running vBulletin will have a dedicated server, and the last time I checked it wasn't a requirement -- nor should it be. Plus, I wasn't referring to all addons to be plugins, but the major ones that wind up making their own entries in the ACP menu, and add gobs of code in templates -- it's already an eyesore editing them.
Yes but not that many features can be put into one page. For example SN will be on the profile page. Thats basically that page re-written.

[Dream]

Also, to add to what I said before, I'd love to give my feedback to planned features/optimizations for the products, and I think others would too. You can argue customer feedback on features can slow down development, but I think we can all agree (at least the ones that were here from that time) that v3.x is what it is because of all that customer feedback on the beta stage, even if it was chaos.

About ETAs, if they would put pressure on developers then no ETAs, in my opinion. They are cool info for customers, but I don't wanna put pressure on the developers. Now if they can work with non-final ETAs and not feel pressure all the better.

There's not much activity on these forums like it used to be. Having feature lists, ETAs, roadmaps would not create as much drama as it used to create. Just my 2 cents.

edit: maybe people grew up, or all the annoying people but me went to IPB, or vb today has mostly serious customers, I don't know

[ManagerJosh]

i wonder if Jelsoft could start a customer experience program that allows us to beta test, feedback, etc. We just need to sign a NDA :D

[Fusion]

I'd offer up my X for such a program.

[merk]

More elitism isnt whats needed, just more communication.

[ManagerJosh]

More elitism isnt whats needed, just more communication.
I'm open to suggestions where both sides can win. Ultimately there won't be a perfect solution, and certain things won't be where we want it, but if want something, we're going to need to find common ground here. We can't have the entire cake and eat the whole thing too.

[Reeve of Shinra]

A lot of thoughts and opinions have been offered thus far and I think common ground can be found here but ultimately the word needs to come from the staff regarding their thoughts / concerns about what has been said, no?

[ManagerJosh]

We better start throwing out ideas here if we want something done. Simply "communicating" is too vague.

[merk]

Is it? We're paying for a product and would like to know what is planned for it.

Personally I dont care THAT MUCH for dates, but a percentage done based on features to be implemented + testing milestones would be also nice to know.

And we dont need to find middle ground, Jelsoft need to evaluate what their customers want and decide if its something they wish to do. (and it would be nice for a Jelsoft representative to either state that they're going to consider something or tell us to shut up so we can then make our own decisions on if we want to stay with the product/company)

[ManagerJosh]

A company who tells its customers to shut up will loose my business in a heartbeat.

[ChrisLM2001]

A company who tells its customers to shut up will loose my business in a heartbeat.

Well, basically, one of the staffers told me to shutup, but I'm persistent because I really do like the product. ;) They are "touchy" but it's not I that's fighting them personally, but that I am fighting that "hive-mind" mentality. Programming is not that close-ended. They duke out ideas, they disagree, but that's the creative process at work. It's like science.

A roadmap is a good way for customers to see where vBulletin/Jelsoft is going under new leadership (being bought out makes a roadmap even more important than before, as it's not just Jelsoft's "show" anymore). Customers don't need trade secrets, but the roadmaps Intel and AMD offers will do fine.

I really would like to know if the template system will be revolutionary in vB 4.0.0RC, and that vBulletin has entered the 21st century, with the programming mindset that will go with it. Design isn't an afterthought, it's the frontdoor to vBulletin, as members of forums won't know about what's behind the page, but they will SEE the forum.

[Fusion]

A company who tells its customers to shut up will loose my business in a heartbeat.
Well, they haven't done that, have they? Not yet, anyways. :p

[ChrisLM2001]

Yes but not that many features can be put into one page. For example SN will be on the profile page. Thats basically that page re-written.

It's one page for this feature; one page for the other feature, and on and on and on.

Plain code bloat.

Don't need a on/off switch. Just don't need the code in the files itself. The forum isn't loading any faster due to it all being jammed into it.

I didn't think much of code bloat years ago, as vBulletin wasn't that huge. But comparing the default install of 3.5.x to 3.6.8, it has changed my mind (okay, Merk and crew you were right). The code blew up to over 3MB alone -- default code -- that's a heck of a lot of code to weed through.

Looks like I will have to get that Refractory book, if this is the roadmap. :(

[mihai11]

I just posted this:
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1441092&postcount=177

then I saw this thread.

A road map is VERY important !

Like I said in my previous post:

Jelsoft, please provide a timeline of what you are doing ! Don't let people in the dark any more !

[Analogpoint]

It's one page for this feature; one page for the other feature, and on and on and on.

Plain code bloat.

Don't need a on/off switch. Just don't need the code in the files itself. The forum isn't loading any faster due to it all being jammed into it.

I didn't think much of code bloat years ago, as vBulletin wasn't that huge. But comparing the default install of 3.5.x to 3.6.8, it has changed my mind (okay, Merk and crew you were right). The code blew up to over 3MB alone -- default code -- that's a heck of a lot of code to weed through.

Looks like I will have to get that Refractory book, if this is the roadmap. :(
You made me smile :) Thanks. [and just for the record, I don't agree.]

[merk]

Don't need a on/off switch. Just don't need the code in the files itself. The forum isn't loading any faster due to it all being jammed into it.

And it doesnt make it load any slower:
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244442

[emmanuel132]

a roadmap would be awesome

[Flexo]

a roadmap would be awesomeAlso for the competition ;)
Regular updates would be fine.

[Flexo]

From what I see is that 3.7.0 beta and or rc will be out within November 2007 or January 2008.Where do you get that from?

[Reeve of Shinra]

They competition doesn't need the roadmap, they just need to read the many requests coming from vbusers about what they want to gain converts. ;)

[Flexo]

They competition doesn't need the roadmap, they just need to read the many requests coming from vbusers about what they want to gain converts. ;)That's one way to look at it, and I'd agree with you if competition were based on who gives the customers what they want. But since nobody can actually do that entirely, it's closer to giving the customers more of what they want than the other guys do ;-)
So it's quite important to know what other forums are going to implement in the future and counter that with your own software.

[Reeve of Shinra]

Yes, there is an advantage in being first to market with a solution but vb's not first here lol

[Fusion]

Where do you get that from?
His imagination, obviously.

[---MAD---]

Yes, there is an advantage in being first to market with a solution but vb's not first here lol
Its first in some aspects and not in others. I think it was the first with the plugin system for example.

[Jose Amaral Rego]

His imagination, obviously.

Try forum searching topics of when a function will be implemented and you will see it comes out soon after. I really doubt it will take a year or why bother even mentioning it.

[ChrisLM2001]

And it doesnt make it load any slower:
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244442

Here's something to think about php...

http://toykeeper.net/soapbox/php_problems/


1. Namespaces don't exist at all. (this is similar to keeping all your files in one directory) There have been discussions about adding namespaces, but the proposed separator is \? because "there isn't any other character left"...

:D

And benchmarks...

http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/debian/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=all&xfullcpu=1&xmem=0&xloc=0&binarytrees=1&chameneos=0&message=0&fannkuch=1&fasta=1&knucleotide=1&mandelbrot=1&nbody=1&nsieve=1&nsievebits=1&partialsums=1&pidigits=1&recursive=1&regexdna=1&revcomp=1&spectralnorm=1&hello=1&sumcol=1&calc=Calculate

PHP is s-l-o-w.

And even more reading (love the topic: Separation of Presentation from Business Logic)...

http://www.ukuug.org/events/linux2002/papers/html/php/index.html


A separation of this sort also allows websites to be built by two teams of developers: one responsible for the business logic, and another responsible for the design. Since few capable programmers are equally capable when it comes to visual design, this is a significant advantage.

Unfortunately, PHP, far from promoting such a separation, actually promotes the inverse. The whole point of PHP is to combine the HTML that forms the site’s look with the business logic — the code that produces the site’s content, which in turn is presumably derived from a database. Even inexperienced programmers have little difficulty understanding of HTML markup with the code that generates the content; this in turn makes PHP an easy language to learn and to teach. And compared to the common alternative of generating HTML markup with a programming language’s print function, this certainly represents a significant improvement in readability and writability.

However, the effect this has is precisely the opposite of that desired: the business logic and the presentation are thoroughly commingled. This makes incremental design changes particularly hard. An uncharitable observer might speculate that this is why so few PHP-driven websites receive timely improvements to their æsthetics and user interface.

:p

1337 post. I'm l33t, hahaha!

[El_Muerte]

your points being? vBulletin should be rewritten as a C application?

[merk]

We know PHP is slow. We dont need more proof of that.

That is not the fault of vBulletin - it isnt a compiled language. (and im not going to bother reading your linked pages, because I dont really care)

[ChrisLM2001]

your points being? vBulletin should be rewritten as a C application?

No, but it's a counterpoint to Merk's reply.

PHP is slow, only 3 other languages are slower (Ruby being one of them -- which would explain why shared servers with it installed c-r-a-w-l). The code bloat itself may not lead to a slower program, but it doesn't help that the code gets longer and longer and longer... When it gets too full of cruft (PHP being one of the most convulted langauges), it becomes a nightmare to maintain -- and it's the end-users who'll be maintaining it.

Merk doesn't want to read the links, but he knows the links are true (just look at the memory requirements at the Debian-AMD benchtest link, alone. Not only is it slow, it eats memory like it's going out of style).

If vBulletin continues down this route it'll reach a critical mass, where function is buried for "features" that require more routines and more memory to operate. Can't continue stuffing the software and expect no consequences. "Pay day" will come, and usually not in an elegant manner.

Thus, I'm saying: want a nifty feature? Make it a plugin, keep the core code lean.

[Michelle]

I'm not going to get too involved in this discussion,


I'm not going to get too involved with the discussion too;

May I ask why?

[merk]

Merk doesn't want to read the links, but he knows the links are true (just look at the memory requirements at the Debian-AMD benchtest link, alone. Not only is it slow, it eats memory like it's going out of style).

eval() is even slower than having the code in the PHP files.

I'd prefer having conditionals in the code.

And again, we all know php is slow. You are not making any valid points that vBulletin can do anything about. PHP is the language they chose. If you have a problem with how slow it is, join the PHP development team and do something about it.

[ChrisLM2001]

And again, we all know php is slow. You are not making any valid points that vBulletin can do anything about. PHP is the language they chose. If you have a problem with how slow it is, join the PHP development team and do something about it.

Actually, I made my point, Merk, and that's quite valid. :)

BTW, lighten up. All work, and no play, makes Jack a very dull boy.

[ManagerJosh]

May I ask why?
Because as official Jelsoft representatives, what they say may be reflective of Jelsoft.

[BamaStangGuy]

Just like what they don't say may be reflective of Jelsoft :D

[ManagerJosh]

Just like what they don't say may be reflective of Jelsoft :D
That's merely a personal assumption/assertion though. Or a collective assumption/assertion at best. It isn't Jelsoft at the end of the day.

[MaviJean]

I believe it would be better to have a roadmap of jelsoft at least for us the project owners.

We know that; if we are going to create a site which will rise around a forum software, vbulletin is the answer.
But what if our project contains a content management system, a blogging section for member or a mechanism where forum is not in the center ?

Do we have to delay our project to go with jelsoft solutions ?
Do we have to search for vbulletin compatible systems for our projects ?
Do we have to search for vbulletin.org forum and its mods database to fit our project in ?
Do we have to go with solutions like vbdrupal ?
OR do we have to go with completely different solution ?

These are several questions which are continuously moving in the project owners head. If you are going to provide a future proof service like its mentioned in the other posts, you have to deal with these questions.

Yes we know that these are the questions which should be answered by project owners BUT the foggy future of jelsoft products (i mean we don't have a simple idea about what we should expect and when) produces HOPES / POSSIBILITIES in the peoples lists/head.

I think this is the result of quality service/products which is provided by jelsoft, we want to continue with jelsoft in our future projects but we need a direction atleast roadmap for answering the questions which i mentioned above.

[El_Muerte]

if you bothered to look at the test you might see why PHPs performance is so bad in those specific benchmarks.
PHP performs much better when used as a webserver module (or fastcgi), and using an opcode cache makes i even faster.
PHP's startup is very slow, so you want to do that as less as possible:
http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/debian/benchmark.php?test=hello&lang=all

[Tailfeathers]

Also for the competition ;)
Regular updates would be fine.
Considering the competition keeps releasing new updates and vBulletin's releases have virtually become non-existant, I think the status quo is helping the competition a lot more than a roadmap would!

Though a roadmap doesn't matter much without concrete results, so above all it would be nice to actually see frequent releases.

[ChrisLM2001]

We know that; if we are going to create a site which will rise around a forum software, vbulletin is the answer.
But what if our project contains a content management system, a blogging section for member or a mechanism where forum is not in the center ?


Which is why a roadmap is needed.

In the computer hardware business, Intel/AMD/Nvidia/ATI has to release a roadmap so manufacturers can be ready to market and retool for each technology upgrade. They don't tell the manufacturers the exact details, but they show them 1/2/5 years in advance what is in the pipline.

Content distributors aren't as pressing (they don't have to retool a plant worth 200 million dollars, for example), but if Jelsoft is going the route of releasing products to accent it's flagship, vBulletin, they will have to let content distributors know -- in advance -- so they can be ready to remake their websites around it.

vBulletin suffers thinking one way (it's programming/business logic is "old skool", despite technology advances). It worked fine in 2002, but 5 years later the ("don't worry your pretty little heads") mentality will cripple them. They were 2 years behind on blogging (and it's not a standalone, but a mod attached to vBulletin); 5 years on a CMS (folks been asking since 2002); and with web standards it's also locked into 2002 (especially the dependence on php and mixing presentation with code -- how will the web transform to XML/XSLT if it's locked into embedded HTML in code??).

The little infighting above with PHP shows that turf defending, and the last thing programming needs is to defend cruft and inane coding practices. It's a constant battle, if a product is based around a certain technology, those who use it and invested time and effort to learn it's dos and don'ts, are going to fight tooth and nail to save it (why those who want to run vBulletin on a enterprise level database like MS SQL [which IS better], go unheard, as it's not in the LAMP framework). Change brings learning new tips and tricks, something the coders h-a-t-e (maybe someone on the coding side will grow a brain cell and learn that non-human friendly bits and byte languages are it's worse enemy, instead of defending it??).

But that's life, it progresses. Remember back in 1998, when I visited my local art supply house. All those Zip-a-Tone dry transfer letterings; pica rulers; technical pens/inks/pencils/; drafting supplies all needed for illustration work, were being phased out for Adobe Illustrator/Quark/AutoCAD. Had no choice but to dive into the graphics side of computing, because tried-and-true methods of paste up were dying out for new technology.

Same applies here, even with vBulletin. It needs to move on, with a clear vision to the future -- not just adding bits and pieces, and it's end-users having no clue what that future may bring. Jelsoft's pica rulers still show on the shelf with a $160 price tag, despite layouts being done now in graphics programs.

5 years is a l-o-n-g time in computing. Usually if you don't see a product by then, it wasn't in the pipeline to be completed (which means 3 things -- 1. Technology isn't capable (php/mysql has it's limitations); 2. Finances/time aren't available; 3. Listed not important to support).

vBulletin staff doesn't have to answer, time does all of the answering itself.

[Michelle]

Because as official Jelsoft representatives, what they say may be reflective of Jelsoft.

So we shouldn't/won't get a reply from Jelsoft?

[ChrisLM2001]

if you bothered to look at the test you might see why PHPs performance is so bad in those specific benchmarks.
PHP performs much better when used as a webserver module (or fastcgi), and using an opcode cache makes i even faster.
PHP's startup is very slow, so you want to do that as less as possible:
http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/debian/benchmark.php?test=hello&lang=all

The link I showed wasn't for startups, it was for speed of use for PHP -- actually processing data and the speed/memory/size required to do so.

PHP is consistently the 3rd or 5th slowest in speed.

Content isn't going to be any smaller, and more content is processed, more it'll replicate churning DNA peptide chains and SETI datasets.

All of this is important when you want to branch from just running a forum, to a CMS, then tacking on whatever other complex addons.

[merk]

So we shouldn't/won't get a reply from Jelsoft?

Because generally employees opinions dont count as a response from the company, and the easiest thing for those employees to do is to bow out of the discussion until their bosses/management decide if they wish to respond.

There is no indication that they will, though :)

[Tailfeathers]

Well they didn't bow too much out of the discussion since three of them voted for "I'm ok the way things are now." thus skewing the poll slightly, giving that option a bit higher of a percentage than it should have. :p

[Wayne Luke]

Well they didn't bow too much out of the discussion since three of them voted for "I'm ok the way things are now." thus skewing the poll slightly, giving that option a bit higher of a percentage than it should have. :p
Those votes were added before there was an option to abstain on the poll.

[ChrisLM2001]

Those votes were added before there was an option to abstain on the poll.

2 voted, but the third vote was recent. ;)

[alme]

I don't know how much of a typical customer I am, but I agree with many of the comments.

I bought vB (+ blog & project) a few weeks ago. I would have bought IPB instead only by comparing the latest version of both products. But after a bit of research in available plugins, among forum software discussions and over-all product popularity and installed user base, I chose vB.

However, if vB doesn't manage to keep momentum around its products and to keep a good and healthy community of members and plugins, I think momentum may change.

Also, as a end-user I'm very interested in future features, since that affects my future plans for my community. It's hard to plan your own community development if you know nothing about the near (< 6 months) vB development.

Thanks for a great product!

[El_Muerte]

The link I showed wasn't for startups, it was for speed of use for PHP -- actually processing data and the speed/memory/size required to do so.

PHP is consistently the 3rd or 5th slowest in speed.

Content isn't going to be any smaller, and more content is processed, more it'll replicate churning DNA peptide chains and SETI datasets.

All of this is important when you want to branch from just running a forum, to a CMS, then tacking on whatever other complex addons.

startup time is included in the speed results, tests were performed by repeatedly calling PHP cli with the script.
the hello world test is mostly about the startup time.

[Tailfeathers]

2 voted, but the third vote was recent. ;)
And they could have abstained from voting altogether -- it's not like they were forced to vote.

[ChrisLM2001]

And they could have abstained from voting altogether -- it's not like they were forced to vote.

Maybe in reading the tea leaves we see some want the status quo to remain ("vB's business plan hasn't failed us yet!!").

Yep, yet.

But anyway you state it, a roadmap is essential. No longer is vBulletin just a forum software, it has visions of expanding on it's flagship, which means content developers need to know when to buy and upkeep the addons/revisions -- let alone upgrade hardware. Unlike security updates, releases of new versions are controlled and follow a timeline (at least I hope so with vBulletin).

[BamaStangGuy]

We all know vBulletin 4.0 isn't going to come out 3-4 months after 3.7. That's a pretty safe assumption. Hell its probably safe to say that it won't be out 6-8 months after 3.7.

So just imagine where that leaves vb 4.0 coming out?

I hope I am wrong but seeing how things have gone in the past.....

[Dream]

We all know vBulletin 4.0 isn't going to come out 3-4 months after 3.7. That's a pretty safe assumption. Hell its probably safe to say that it won't be out 6-8 months after 3.7.

That's a VERY optimistic assumption :p

Blog took 5 months to make.

[Razasharp]

Well it could be argued that previously they were a group of enthusiasts working together on something, as opposed to a full on business - now they have a parent company who will expect results, perhaps things will be different and they'll surprise everyone.

[ChrisLM2001]

That's a VERY optimistic assumption :p

Blog took 5 months to make.

And it shows. :(

I was so hyped about having vBlog 2 years ago. Went on a posting splurge over it. Finally released, and learned it was still tied to the forum, and basically not even a stripped down version of the vBJournal mod (which IS extensive). So very disappointed, as I was looking for a replacement for WordPress/Blogger/Nucleus -- a professional solution.

[Michelle]

So very disappointed, as I was looking for a replacement for WordPress/Blogger/Nucleus -- a professional solution.

Same here, but I haven't given up hope. I believe vBlog has potential, and I hope that it will be greatly improved over next major releases. :)

Btw, if the vB team really likes things as they are, why don't they come and reason about it?

[BamaStangGuy]

Same here, but I haven't given up hope. I believe vBlog has potential, and I hope that it will be greatly improved over next major releases. :)

Btw, if the vB team really likes things as they are, why don't they come and reason about it?
Exactly. Just because there was no "abstain" option doesn't excuse the fact that apparently they chose the best answer that was available to reflect how the feel. Which sucks because its discouraging to see the staff believe the way things are is fine.

[whitetigergrowl]

3.7 for many will likely start to tell the tale of where VB is going. If anywhere useful. They claim it to be a large step up. Wait and see I guess. If they hype it up too much and it becomes a let down, it would get ugly from there.

As for 4.0, earliest would likely be next fall for beta.

Out of curiosity when was the last time or version VB was considered a performance release? In other words, coding and such was cleaned up and done to help minimize Vbulletins footprint on your servers resources?

[Fusion]

That's a VERY optimistic assumption :p

Blog took 5 months to make.
4.0? Two years away, at the earliest.
Think I'm just trolling? Tag this post and return to it in 2 years time, and we'll see.

[ChrisLM2001]

Same here, but I haven't given up hope. I believe vBlog has potential, and I hope that it will be greatly improved over next major releases. :)

Btw, if the vB team really likes things as they are, why don't they come and reason about it?

Until Jelsoft is willing to make a standalone product away from vBulletin, it'll always be attached to the forum. Bloggers don't need a forum, it takes away from what a blog is. They can add 10001 addons and stuff it full, but as long as it's part of the forum, it'll never be a blog itself -- a lightweight communication product that allows interaction with it's readers.

There's a serious need for a full fledged professional level blog software (WordPress+RSS+ATOM+FeedBurner/Daemon+SEO). It's also how Jelsoft can show the world that they can actually write a XHTML 1.0 Strict PHP/HTML product, too (as a Transitional DTD isn't an option).

I read so much how Jelsoft can write good PHP, let's see them take the CSS/XHTML side as seriously, too.

Do this one right, Jelsoft, as this is what's lacking in the blogsphere -- a pro level blog that's security conscious.

[Dilly]

You whine a lot. Do you have anything positive to say?

[Steve Machol]

Which sucks because its discouraging to see the staff believe the way things are is fine.
That is not true and this was already explained.

[Reeve of Shinra]

At this time 86% want more communication about where things are going and when. 10% believe that things are great right now and 4% abstain from voting or they are staff members.

The polling audience isn't exactly huge but 86% is a clear indication that change is needed.

[---MAD---]

That's a VERY optimistic assumption :p

Blog took 5 months to make.
Nah its not like they posted an announcement the moment they started. They must have started far earlier.

3.7 for many will likely start to tell the tale of where VB is going. If anywhere useful. They claim it to be a large step up. Wait and see I guess. If they hype it up too much and it becomes a let down, it would get ugly from there.

As for 4.0, earliest would likely be next fall for beta.

Out of curiosity when was the last time or version VB was considered a performance release? In other words, coding and such was cleaned up and done to help minimize Vbulletins footprint on your servers resources?
3.7 will be an important step I agree but also kind of had to push 4.0 back even further. A new feature version requires beta/rc versions which means that alone could take two months before its stable. I doubt they would release the beta of 4.0 6 months after 3.7 is released, they usually wait a year. A major version for vBulletin would take even longer in beta/rc and people would wait a lot longer before upgrading to it when it is stable because of the fact the code will be changed so many so any addons/modifications/style changes have to be redone completely most likely.

[ChrisLM2001]

You whine a lot. Do you have anything positive to say?

I don't kiss butt, Dilly. Nor do I believe it's beneficial to be surrounded by "yes men". That's how companies are destroyed -- for they lost touch with reality.

If I had a project, I would want to know why someone was dissatisfied with it, in detail. To learn why, and to see how others agree or disagree (much like these threads turn out). Too often if you're the creator/developer you're too close to the project and can't see the whole picture (just the parts).

Consider this a sounding board.

[ManagerJosh]

If one whines, more than likely a company would pass up on their suggestions. One simply looses credibility.

[MRGTB]

I think it goes without saying really that most people are expecting a CSS driven template system that validates to CSS Strict in vB 4.0 to get things up-to date in that major new version. And I think they will do that!

I think the only issue is when will vB 4.0 be with us.

[ChrisLM2001]

If one whines, more than likely a company would pass up on their suggestions. One simply looses credibility.

If they do, it's not the whiner they hurt. One thing I learned long ago while working at McDonalds (a company with the statistics for such things): for every 1 dissatisfied customer, a company can lose at least 10. For that dissastisfied customer will tell at least 10 others, who will tell 10 others and it snowballs from there (ever wonder why Mickey D's is so adamant about sastifying customers? Now you know).

Also credibility is in the eye of the beholder. What I may consider noncredible, another would claim is an asset, and vice versa. Opinions are like that.

[Freesteyelz]

every frigging template on everyone's vB site looks the EXACT same (sure, colors, logos and borders are different...) but in the end, you have the same damn board everywhere because everyone is stuck in the god forsaken template engine.

Find me a vB site that looks unique and doesn't even "scream" vB. I bet you can't.



There are many vB forums. Your statement above has a large room for error, don't you think?

[briansol]

There are many vB forums. Your statement above has a large room for error, don't you think?

nope.

prove me wrong.

find me a site that runs vB that doesn't look 'generic'.

[ManagerJosh]

FYI Brian, the comments were not directed at you :). Threading sometimes is a good thing that helps figure out who the comment was directed at. And it was most certainly not directed at you.

My apologizes for that.


Edit: I'm curious to which reply Andy gave. I looked at both his replies and both are very polite. Generic, but polite.
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1438931#post1438931
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1438656#post1438656

[merk]

I dont see the point about arguing about forums that exist that dont look like vBulletin - of course there are going to be some.

The point is its so much hassle to change from default that the MAJORITY dont do it.

I also find it strange that this thread has been derailed. It isnt about XHTML/CSS - its about a roadmap.

[Floris]

We are moving to a new web server with wetalk.tv so the host might be unreachable for some people.

[Onimua]

So phpBB3 has XHTML Strict templates (they had to make it not because only ONE person wanted it), but it's not good enough for vBulletin?

Oh, man, this is worse than I thought. :(
Then again, phpBB 3 was a major version from phpBB 2.

It's already been said dozens of times that the design will change for vBulletin 4; it won't be done for the vB 3.x series for various reasons (and this was explained by Kier a while ago as well).

[ChrisLM2001]

Then again, phpBB 3 was a major version from phpBB 2.

Isn't vB4?

Remember we're talking about the roadmap, and knowing about the next major version of vBulletin?

[Zachery]

Isn't vB4?

Remember we're talking about the roadmap, and knowing about the next major version of vBulletin?
You want more than what we are giving right now and seem to be trying to egg anwsers out of us.

[Floris]

This topic is NOT about w3c.org "recommendation", but about the request for a roadmap. Let's go back on topic? Thanks :)

[ChrisLM2001]

You want more than what we are giving right now and seem to be trying to egg anwsers out of us.

I want to know if vBulletin is keeping up with technology, and not just on the PHP/MySQL side.

That's not asking much, especially when license holders expect the #1 forumware to be on top of the game -- not second place.

Crap, phpBB3 already has it without this fuss, and here license holders have been asking, demanding, pleading with vB developers since 2003 for the same.

AAAAGGGGGHHHHHH!!!

[briansol]

briansol, even if the bbcode parser used 100% valid xhtml and such, its still possible for a user to muck it up by doing it badly.

it can be promgrammed around.

word press has a "fix invalid nested xhtml automotcially" check box.

why doesn't vb?

[Onimua]

Isn't vB4?

Remember we're talking about the roadmap, and knowing about the next major version of vBulletin?

I'm aware about the discussion that this thread started on, but it's dwindled down to the constant "Make a new look!" discussion, which really gets nowhere fast as people constantly chime in with their own methods and philosophies about what's right and what's wrong with web design. It's been known for a while that we'll get a new design, but as to what that will be, and more what people tend to focus on, how that will happen is yet to be seen.

The discussion in this thread just focusing on design is irrelevant in terms of trying to focus on the greater scope, and that is vBulletin 4 in general. Yes, I'd like to see a new design. Yes, I'd like to have easier methods of being able to create vBulletin styles and be able to easily control the layout. But just focusing the look and how to make ways to have customization easier is not helping the entire idea behind this thread.

What about new features? What about discussing in what way we'd get faster page renders? How about the JavaScript discussion, and seeing where that goes? What about better tools and options for our members?

There's this constant drive toward the design side of things, and yes although that also flows into functionality and usability, just focusing on how to make vBulletin prettier isn't really going to do anything.

There is more to vBulletin than the look of it, and ignoring that here when we're supposed to be talking about a roadmap doesn't help.

[ChrisLM2001]

I'm aware about the discussion that this thread started on, but it's dwindled down to the constant "Make a new look!" discussion, which really gets nowhere fast as people constantly chime in with their own methods and philosophies about what's right and what's wrong with web design. It's been known for a while that we'll get a new design, but as to what that will be, and more what people tend to focus on, how that will happen is yet to be seen.

And do you know why this is a constant occurance? And no matter how many threads are closed, it won't hide the issues?

It exists because the status-quo doesn't want to change. Their fat and full on status, and don't seem to care about the web code side of the equation. They'll be so eager to throw in 3MB of AJAX coding in less than 6 months time, but 4 years of asking for the same attention to CSS/XHTML goes on deaf ears.

That shows something is wrong in Reading (not Houstin this time, the shuttle has landed!).

All anyone has to look at is see the overall picture of the vBulletin roadmap, and the response. It tells a story of building a car by it's engine, and giving it that Edsel look.

And, Onimua, where did the Edsel go?

[Onimua]

And do you know why this is a constant occurance? And no matter how many threads are closed, it won't hide the issues?

It exists because the status-quo doesn't want to change. Their fat and full on status, and don't seem to care about the web code side of the equation. They'll be so eager to throw in 3MB of AJAX coding in less than 6 months time, but 4 years of asking for the same attention to CSS/XHTML goes on deaf ears.

That shows something is wrong in Reading (not Houstin this time, the shuttle has landed!).

All anyone has to look at is see the overall picture of the vBulletin roadmap, and the response. It tells a story of building a car by it's engine, and giving it that Edsel look.

And, Onimua, where did the Edsel go?
Who was hiding the issues? I'm better more often than not that the threads that were closed because no one could agree and it became an issue of personal attacks on each other, or it simply died because no one could agree.

There has already been confirmation on a new design and that will undoubtedly come with the newer methods of designing that have some from that. Before that can happen, the template system as a whole needs to be revisited with better CSS controls, redone template portions, and various other things that just can't be done without seriously breaking legacy support with previous versions and modifications (which will upset another group of people: The coders). Before that, the code needs to be rewritten to how templates are called and managed.

I think a majority with it is that people expect this sort of large change to happen with each successive release, but it's not until vBulletin 4.

... and again, it's looping back the the whole discussion about making vBulletin look better but not how it works as a whole.

[Reeve of Shinra]

The css/xhtml aspect of this thread should be split into a new discussion topic.

We need the roadmap first, then we can discuss wht is missing from it.

[Jose Amaral Rego]

Well at least the owner of this forum is removing all tables from custom style and it seems to be working very well.
http://www.alkon.com.ar/foro/

I agree with Reeve of Shinra, as this thread is now turning into compliance with next gen. css.

[ChrisLM2001]

The css/xhtml aspect of this thread should be split into a new discussion topic.

So it can be locked like the other threads?


We need the roadmap first, then we can discuss wht is missing from it.

How do you propose a roadmap will come? About 101 votes for 10,000 license owners going to change the devs' mind? That's what Jelsoft sees as numbers, thus, they don't feel the heat to change.

The only thing you can do is appeal to the public, and hope it'll appeal to all those who don't bother to post. That's better done off the forum (where threads aren't locked).

[Floris]

Because we always value customer feedback, even if it is from an individual or a handful, or the majority. Discussing suggestions, giving opinions, and have constructive discussion about matters at hand is all fine (just watch it that arguments aren't made to try and convince another or that it turns into personal attacks). To make a thread easier to read through for others' it's usually recommended to stay on topic as much as possible (but not required in the chit-chat forum for example).

The staff is well aware of the suggestion of a roadmap, and it has been discussed in the past and probably comes up again, just like now. The same goes for new features, and revamping the style, and adding on new products, and all those things.

[merk]

The staff is well aware of the suggestion of a roadmap, and it has been discussed in the past and probably comes up again, just like now. The same goes for new features, and revamping the style, and adding on new products, and all those things.

Not exactly what we want to hear, though. That just means that its your opinion (with basis in fact, or not, it doesnt matter) that nothing will happen.

\o/

[merk]

The only thing you can do is appeal to the public, and hope it'll appeal to all those who don't bother to post. That's better done off the forum (where threads aren't locked).

Alot of threads that you've been involved in in the past have degraded into personal opinions on CSS/XHTML and have been locked.

Its a shame this thread got derailed as much as it did. CSS/XHTML do not have any relevance to a timeline/roadmap request.

[Freesteyelz]

Here are two threads to continue the discussion on design and W3C compliance:

Upgrade the LOOK! (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240782)

What W3C compliance should vBulletin have? (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=248014)


As for the roadmap poll the results currently show:

Yes, a roadmap would be nice = 101 (56.74%)
Yes, but a montly update would be nicer = 43 (24.16%)
Yes, but a weekly update would be nicer = 10 (5.62%)

That's an overwhelming 86.52% in favor of a roadmap.

[Reeve of Shinra]

Is our request for a roadmap and additional information being discussed internally at this time?

I am sure a deffinitive answer may not have been reached yet as there are probably a million details to consider.

Thank you

[Wayne Luke]

Is our request for a roadmap and additional information being discussed internally at this time?

It has been and is continued to be discussed internally. We cannot disclose any results of that discussion at this time.

[RvG]

OT: :rolleyes: still looking for hope... that they will compete with "ay pee bee" and not being contented on what it is now! oh well they have improved a lots now...

Just a thought!

[Fusion]

It has been and is continued to be discussed internally. We cannot disclose any results of that discussion at this time.
As seen in the past, it's rather likely we'll never see or hear anything coming from that discussion. Just pointing this out so people won't have to get their hopes up in vain.

[ChrisLM2001]

Alot of threads that you've been involved in in the past have degraded into personal opinions on CSS/XHTML and have been locked.

Degraded into a ratio of about 5:1 in personal attacks, forget opinions.

And you can't blame me for all of the threads being locked, as they continued long after I was gone. And they continue because folks are backing up the status quo (like attacking the messenger for the message, as you can see in this thread, top/down).

The status quo is not having a roadmap and locking W3C compliance threads. I'm not for the status quo, nor do I believe anyone who wants a roadmap, either.


Its a shame this thread got derailed as much as it did. CSS/XHTML do not have any relevance to a timeline/roadmap request.

Actually it does, since folks been asking about it for 4 years. That's a heck of a long time in software development.

Yep, we need a timeline on it, considering other projects already made XHTML Strict compliant software.

This isn't phpBB3, or some free mod, folks pay good money for vBulletin. Their expectations are a tad higher. Excuses don't work.

[Floris]

Despite users and staff asking to keep on topic, it seems to be impossible for some. The posts have been split off from the roadmap discussion and merged with the poll thread dream created the other day

Roadmap thread (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=246678): the thread to discuss the roadmap poll
XHTML thread (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=248014): the thread to discuss the xhtml suggestions

[merk]

We are asking for a roadmap. Not what is going to be on it. (with Jelsofts history, lets take small steps, okay?)

CSS/XHTML ARE NOT THE ONLY CONCERN with vBulletin's development.

[ChrisLM2001]

We are asking for a roadmap. Not what is going to be on it. (with Jelsofts history, lets take small steps, okay?)

CSS/XHTML ARE NOT THE ONLY CONCERN with vBulletin's development.

You will have to know what's in a roadmap, to have one (which is probably why Jelsoft is diddling with this topic, despite larger corporations with more competition -- e.g., Intel and AMD/Nvidia and ATI -- have been issuing roadmaps for m-a-n-y years). ;)

And I believe it's quite clear, the CSS/XHTML and template side of the equation needs to be in it, not 4 years from now!

[Floris]

You will have to know what's in a roadmap, to have one (which is probably why Jelsoft is diddling with this topic, despite larger corporations with more competition -- e.g., Intel and AMD/Nvidia and ATI -- have been issuing roadmaps for m-a-n-y years). ;)

And I believe it's quite clear, the CSS/XHTML and template side of the equation needs to be in it, not 4 years from now!
Yes, you've mentioned it. The staff is aware of your suggestion. Thank you for it, as always the company is reviewing it for future releases. And as with every suggestion in the suggestion forum we can't promise or disclose which suggestions will make it in or not, or when, and how. Repeating yourself constantly won't change that. Leave some room please for others to participate in the discussion about if they wish to see a roadmap or not.

[AWS]

Jelsoft looks to be headed down the same path Infopop followed years back. They think they can post tidbits of info here and there, most of it never coming to be, the cms and support for postgresl and other backends as a couple examples, to appease the loyal user. Problem is the loyal userbase is shrinking.
Look back through the other threads asking for updates on future dev. You'll get the same canned responses from staff you see here. The only thing that has changed is they no longer give the excuse that if they created a roadmap or gave out information about new features the competition would steal the ideas. Can't use that one because the competition left them in the dust long ago.
Every software company has a roadmap that is updated often to reflect the changes in the dev cycle. Every software company except Jelsoft I should say.

[MRGTB]

Jelsoft looks to be headed down the same path Infopop followed years back. They think they can post tidbits of info here and there, most of it never coming to be, the cms and support for postgresl and other backends as a couple examples, to appease the loyal user. Problem is the loyal userbase is shrinking.
Look back through the other threads asking for updates on future dev. You'll get the same canned responses from staff you see here.

I agree with you, it also concerns me that vB can't even say what their plans are for vB 4.0 regarding Style, CSS and Markup. Are you planning to create a WC3 strict forum or what in vB 4.0. It's not a hard question to answer and you surely must know by now. You've mentioned vB 4.0 enough over this last year to know that much by now.

Like others I'm fed up of the half baked answers all the time, dropping hints here and there that you'll do this (and yes, like the CMS for example). Then never doing any of them years later. It seems like all your doing all the time is giving faults hope to keep members hanging on and loyal to vBulletin.

vBulletin is falling behind the times now with style markup in many ways as pointed out by the two biggest posters in this thread. The time has come to do something about it to catch up. Otherwise it's gonna backfire big time when other forums developers like IPB and other free boards follow suit and vB doesn't.

[Anthony89]

I love vBulletin and its modification community. Not to mention the support and staff. If people didn't like the way vBulletin the way it is now, they wouldn't have new customers everyday. Only a small vocal minority of people who bother their time on these forums seem to be so dissatisfied and fixated on the future, therefore I doubt that too many people will be jumping ship should that happen.

I have patience for 3.7:)

[Reeve of Shinra]

It is precisely because we like vb and the staff and general support that we are so adamantly vocal about this. If one person says it, hundreds of others are thinking it but wont ever say anything.

vbulletin succeeded because they listened to a competitors customer base when that company did not. History seems to be repeating itself.

If you would like a fairer comparison of the market, you need to look at how many forum liceses are being sold monthly or annually and see what percentage of the sales vb has compared to infopop or invision. There used to be a time when vb was 90% but I dont believe that is the case any longer. The saving grace is a growing market which is keeping the sales numbers growing.

[Dream]

I think a roadmap would make everyone happy. Knowing that Jelsoft intends to keep their product updated would improve the image customers have on the company.

[Brad.loo]

Jelsoft looks to be headed down the same path Infopop followed years back. They think they can post tidbits of info here and there, most of it never coming to be, the cms and support for postgresl and other backends as a couple examples, to appease the loyal user. Problem is the loyal userbase is shrinking.
Look back through the other threads asking for updates on future dev. You'll get the same canned responses from staff you see here. The only thing that has changed is they no longer give the excuse that if they created a roadmap or gave out information about new features the competition would steal the ideas. Can't use that one because the competition left them in the dust long ago.
Every software company has a roadmap that is updated often to reflect the changes in the dev cycle. Every software company except Jelsoft I should say.
You know the who infopop thing crossed my mind the other night. :) I see you were an early convert from your registration date...I hung on a little longer than you..gave up soon after version 6.1 came out. ;)

At any rate I don't think things have gotten that bad around here. To me it seems like the 3.0 delay all over again...we're waiting on 3.7 right now and people are already wanting to see version 4.0 ASAP. On top of that you have customers wanting offical add-ons like blogs and a CMS and whatever else crosses the mind.

This isn't 7 - 8 years ago, things have changed! Forum software is no longer the center peice of our websites, they are just becoming one of many tools our users want to use when they visit our server.

It will take some time to see major changes in vBulletin. We're asking the devs to write something that isn't like what they've done in the past. We also have more people on the dev team now than at any point in the past. It's totally understandable that they want to take as much time as possible in designing and coding all this new software..which is all going to have to work together and conform to certain standards...which are going to have to work in the real world.

Unlike Infopop the guys over here are still very in-tune with their customer's wants and needs. Although it doesn't always seem that way! I'd love it if they were more open with their plans but I understand why they like to keep certain things under wraps. It has more to do with not wanting to show half finished work or having to go back on pior promises than anything else I asure you.

[MRGTB]

Who is: infopop

Sounds like an icecream :)

[Dream]

Infopop is a forum developer. They made UBB, the forum vb was based on.

[merk]

Unlike Infopop the guys over here are still very in-tune with their customer's wants and needs. Although it doesn't always seem that way! I'd love it if they were more open with their plans but I understand why they like to keep certain things under wraps. It has more to do with not wanting to show half finished work or having to go back on pior promises than anything else I asure you.

It has never seemed that way, because the only response we get is from support staff (not developers) that they cant say anything.

We get no responses as to acceptance of feature requests, we get no insight into vBulletin's plans for the future (which is becoming more and more of a requirement for our sites, as you say - sites are becoming more and more complex with their requirements).

I dont care about what 3.7 or 4 contains specifically, I just want to know what the focus and direction is. It helps ME (a customer!) make a better site. Encourages me to actually renew my members area access.

[merk]

Infopop was the spark that caused disgruntled customers into creating vBulletin, at least thats how I understand it.

[Brad.loo]

Who is: infopop

Sounds like an icecream :)
Way back when they were the main player in commercial forum software. Their software (at the time) was coded in perl and used flat files for storage (there was no true database).

It was slow and very server intensive. At some point a lot of their customers demanded that these problems be fixed. Instead of offering their customers what they wanted they introduced a hosted (and very expensive) solution called "Open Topic".

These events are what spawned the creation of vBulletin. vBulletin was orginally coded for one site that was running UBB and were not happy with the software. They decided to do something about it and even offered their code to infopop at one point (who turned down the offer). They decided to sell the software themselves...and well the rest is history.

Most of the guys here with really early registration dates are UBB converts. We are a rare breed now but back then we made up a large portion of the user base.

[ChrisLM2001]

Jelsoft looks to be headed down the same path Infopop followed years back. They think they can post tidbits of info here and there, most of it never coming to be, the cms and support for postgresl and other backends as a couple examples, to appease the loyal user. Problem is the loyal userbase is shrinking.

Wow.

Long time no see. Remember you from the vB 2x days (can't forget that avatar!).

IIRC, Postgresl was available for vB2x (think I tried it out a couple times then, because the claims it's a better database). But like MS SQL, no support of both now. :(

So many issues, so long ago, but good to see an old hand still around.

[Freesteyelz]

Most of the guys here with really early registration dates are UBB converts. We are a rare breed now but back then we made up a large portion of the user base.


I'm not sure if I'm part of that breed as I held out until late 2005. Better late than never I hear. :)

[Ben Barden]

I'd be very happy to see a roadmap. :)

[Fusion]

Try forum searching topics of when a function will be implemented and you will see it comes out soon after. I really doubt it will take a year or why bother even mentioning it.Well, that's just the point. You think it will be out soon. Others. who have been through quite a few of these releases, know that whatever hints you found which makes you believe the hype really mean squat. So yea, it's all in your imagination.

[void]

Infopop was the spark that caused disgruntled customers into creating vBulletin, at least thats how I understand it.
I came from infopoop/ubbthreads, leaving a 5 year license behind, because of the way they treated us and directly censured disgruntled users.

Jelsoft is not there..yet. However, Jelsoft should take note. The mechanisms that bolstered their success, can destroy them as well.

Landslides are easier to prevent than to stop - and they somehow always take their victims by surprise even though there where plenty of warning signs.

[---MAD---]

I came from infopoop/ubbthreads, leaving a 5 year license behind, because of the way they treated us and directly censured disgruntled users.

Jelsoft is not there..yet. However, Jelsoft should take note. The mechanisms that bolstered their success, can destroy them as well.

Landslides are easier to prevent than to stop - and they somehow always take their victims by surprise even though there where plenty of warning signs.
I don't things are that bad. I think 3.7 and especially 4.0, will make big decisions for many customers.

[ChrisLM2001]

I don't things are that bad. I think 3.7 and especially 4.0, will make big decisions for many customers.

It may, MAD, but folks have been through this for years (some who posted here, from the beginning) and they know how Jelsoft operates from experience. Folks are skeptical due to this, a lot of water has past under many bridges, so it's more of "we'll believe it, when we see it".

The important part to remember is: you don't keep up your vBulletin license if you didn't care. They kept it all these years due to their loyalty, but loyalty doesn't mean they have to kiss butt. Something the "amen corner" needs to consider.

Thick or thin, we're all in this together.

[Analogpoint]

It may, MAD, but folks have been through this for years (some who posted here, from the beginning) and they know how Jelsoft operates from experience. Folks are skeptical due to this, a lot of water has past under many bridges, so it's more of "we'll believe it, when we see it".

The important part to remember is: you don't keep up your vBulletin license if you didn't care. They kept it all these years due to their loyalty, but loyalty doesn't mean they have to kiss butt. Something the "amen corner" needs to consider.

Thick or thin, we're all in this together.
:) You made me chuckle because I honestly don't understand what you point is with this post and how it relates to what ---MAD--- said. :)

[ChrisLM2001]

:) You made me chuckle because I honestly don't understand what you point is with this post and how it relates to what ---MAD--- said. :)

:) That cheerleading for cheerleading sake, falls on deaf ears of those who has been through these things, and games, for years.

Which is why a roadmap is quite essential: folks get the goods, without the cruft. :)

[Dream]

The important part to remember is: you don't keep up your vBulletin license if you didn't care. They kept it all these years due to their loyalty, but loyalty doesn't mean they have to kiss butt. Something the "amen corner" needs to consider.

Not loyalty, can be laziness or the person don't think there's a superior product yet.

[ChrisLM2001]

Not loyalty, can be laziness or the person don't think there's a superior product yet.

If they come back to put their 2 cents in, it's not out of laziness. And, by the looks of some of the older users, they could probably write their own forumware if they wanted, to not even bother with any delays. :eek:

[joomlajon]

Just a thought,

Aren't roadmaps mostly for open source projects, or roadmaps for everyone at least. I am sure that vBulletin has a roadmap internally.

I get the feeling and I also have the feeling that people can't hardly wait nowadays.

Information must be provided NOW!!!

So for everyone who have chosen a commercial software for their bulletin board, do you really need a roadmap or are you just impatient?

I know I am impatient, but I don't really need a roadmap. :)

[briansol]

do i NEED one? no. but it helps to know what's coming.

IE, if sirAdrain had known vb was going to release a blog system, would he have spent the time coding vBloggetin?

[Reeve of Shinra]

On a non-commerical level, if I know that a CMS or Social Network is in the works and its slated for a 4Q07 release, I wont waste my money hiring someone to code one for my site. If I know its going to be 4Q08, I may decide its worth the investment to roll my own until Jelsofts solution comes out.

[ChrisLM2001]

I know I am impatient, but I don't really need a roadmap. :)

In the days when vBulletin was just forumware, knowing if an update was coming would've been plain polite. Today, it's no longer about just knowing when to schedule downtime for upgrading, it's knowing when to scale their enterprise.

vBulletin is a pro product and pro and large sites run it, and they have timelines/budgets and procedures to follow months in advance (their own roadmaps). Upgrading for them isn't just a simple upload and be done, it's a multiple discipline effort.

So it's not just impatience and licensing fees they're concerned about. They have to know in advance what's on the horizon, so they can factor Jelsoft's products into their own site.

In the end for Jelsoft, a public roadmap can help better meet their sale expectations, because license holders are prepared in advance (not caught off guard with a surprise 1-2-3 release).

[Analogpoint]

:) That cheerleading for cheerleading sake, falls on deaf ears of those who has been through these things, and games, for years.

Which is why a roadmap is quite essential: folks get the goods, without the cruft. :)

I wasn't trying to provoke you. No hard feelings ok? :)

[AWS]

Just a thought,

Aren't roadmaps mostly for open source projects, or roadmaps for everyone at least. I am sure that vBulletin has a roadmap internally.

I get the feeling and I also have the feeling that people can't hardly wait nowadays.

Information must be provided NOW!!!

So for everyone who have chosen a commercial software for their bulletin board, do you really need a roadmap or are you just impatient?

I know I am impatient, but I don't really need a roadmap. :)
All software companies have roadmaps that are viewable by current or prospective customers. The biggest software company in the World, Microsoft, has one for each product line. It is good business sense to have one to show people what is in store for the future.

[DelphiVillage]

Who is: infopop

Sounds like an icecream :)

Infopop is the creator behind "Ultimate Bulletin Board" or for short ubb and as mentioned earlier i's the reason vBulletin exists

[merk]

Aren't roadmaps mostly for open source projects, or roadmaps for everyone at least. I am sure that vBulletin has a roadmap internally.

You havent dealt with many commercial software vendors I take it?

At the moment Im dealing with one who has an attitude like Jelsoft. Its a shame that their software cost about 100 times what vBulletin's does. Cause I would have never spent the money having known that.

[ManagerJosh]

Just a thought,

Aren't roadmaps mostly for open source projects, or roadmaps for everyone at least. I am sure that vBulletin has a roadmap internally.

I get the feeling and I also have the feeling that people can't hardly wait nowadays.

Information must be provided NOW!!!

So for everyone who have chosen a commercial software for their bulletin board, do you really need a roadmap or are you just impatient?

I know I am impatient, but I don't really need a roadmap. :)
Microsoft's :)

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecycle/servicepacks.mspx

[Analogpoint]

All software companies have roadmaps that are viewable by current or prospective customers. The biggest software company in the World, Microsoft, has one for each product line. It is good business sense to have one to show people what is in store for the future.

I might have believed you if you had said "many".

[joomlajon]

Good arguments ;)

/Jon

[Dream]

I think a roadmap would make everyone happy. Being on the dark is frustrating for a customers waiting updates.

(I imagine you lost customers because of this.)

[Dream]

Hopefully it is not a copy cat of Myspace and is something unique that cannot be found on any other social networking site...otherwise a lot of people are going to be seriously disappointed.


I am not denying that Myspace is huge and that social networking sites will have some basic things that Myspace has because that makes a successful SN site. What more of my point was that it would be great if VB came up with things that Myspace or Facebook don't do...or maybe a mix of the best things of both. Otherwise, people could just download the Myspace hack from vb.org instead of waiting for the SN in 3.7.

This is from another thread. By being so secret you also run this risk. If people could see features before they were released they could give their feedback and you could improve the features, not hope you magically do everything perfect. You do pretty good stuff, but it's still a risk.

[---MAD---]

Microsoft's :)

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecycle/servicepacks.mspx
Wow, that is nice :O. I never knew they had one - nice to see vista SP1 is out in Q1 :D.

[Cody Salter]

Yes, you've mentioned it. The staff is aware of your suggestion. Thank you for it, as always the company is reviewing it for future releases. And as with every suggestion in the suggestion forum we can't promise or disclose which suggestions will make it in or not, or when, and how. Repeating yourself constantly won't change that. Leave some room please for others to participate in the discussion about if they wish to see a roadmap or not.


I think it is pretty clear that others want a road map. I would like one too. There is too much secrecy at Jelsoft, and it is getting on peoples nerves. How long is it going to take for you to come up with an answer? You said it has been brought up in the past, which clearly means you can see the demand for it, yet you fail to lead us with some insight into the future of Jelsoft, remember, we are investing in your software, spending our money.

It doesn't need to be complicated, I have been in positions where I thought it was better not to release to much information, but everytime I did, and clients were happier this way, keeping us in the dark is not the way to treat your paying customers.

[BamaStangGuy]

In all of this mess of a thread has anyone got confirmation from someone other than the typical support people that they will or will not be releasing a roadmap?

I think the interest in one is just enough to warrant Kier or someone else jumping in here and letting us know something fairly quickly. To continue with this secrecey game would be a bad move on their part imo. If you are not going to release a roadmap then tell us. If you are going to then tell us. If you haven't decided then imo you are running out of time too. People are tired of not knowing what's going on around here. When is 4.0 scheduled for release (not exact date, not even a month... general time frame like mentioned before). What are some things that 4.0 will accomplish? Same for 3.7. We know it has Social Networking and the only way we know that is because we constantly browse these forums and read the suggestions area. Otherwise no one would know this without asking somewhere. They can't find this information easily.

When someone is making a decision on whether to purchase this or another forum software, the majority of other forum software have a much better communication platform for letting their potential customers and existing customers know what is going on. SMF does this very well for example. (http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?topic=190102.0) Great update right there.

vBulletin doesn't even remotely come close to that. Hell the only way we know you are working on a new version is because we see the version numbers listed in the bug tracker and project tools. Come on now.... everything is way too secretive around here.

and I had to laugh at this comment:

Yes, you've mentioned it. The staff is aware of your suggestion. Thank you for it, as always the company is reviewing it for future releases. And as with every suggestion in the suggestion forum we can't promise or disclose which suggestions will make it in or not, or when, and how. Repeating yourself constantly won't change that. Leave some room please for others to participate in the discussion about if they wish to see a roadmap or not.

This whole thread is about change and needing a road map. I think a lot of people on here want to see where vBulletin is heading. What's funny is that with the way your current system works this suggestion for a roadmap is being taken just like the others. It's been given the "Thanks for your suggestion about opening up more and not being so secretive. However we can't reveal if this suggestion is going to be implemented because it's our policy to not reveal pretty much anything about our future products to you. One day you may come here and see a roadmap. If and when that happens then you will know your suggestion has been approved.

.... that's about how it feels for me at least.

[MRGTB]

I have to agree, it's about time a straight answer was given. "Road-map or No Road-map".

I agree with what the last two post above said completely. And think they summed up what most people feel, and are getting rather fed up with. The lack of information! It's like Jelsoft are just constantly dangling a carrot on the end of a piece of string with no real answers to things.

Paying customers need to know if vBulletins road-map suits there needs for the future. Or if they should seek other alternatives. It's not fair where left hanging all the time, with nothing more than hints - that sometimes never come true like the CMS mentioned years ago. And it kind of insults our intelligence at times too - and makes me personally feel it's just a ploy to stop people going elsewhere instead by using a blackout on information. Yet still posting tit-bits to keep us wondering and hanging around waiting.

I know vB can't commit to dates, but as an example: Why can't vB say in a road-map how long they think vB 4.0 might be off. And post features they know "WILL" be added to it at the moment. Nothing fixed, just an indication of a timescale for now etc. Just more information for us to plan around basicly etc.

It really is time we got a straight answer on this.

[Kier]

I am looking into methods with which to do a more structured and open information release than we have in the past. Right now efforts are all concentrated on 3.7 but as soon as that is in beta I'll be putting something in place to help our customers stays apprised of what's going on and what's coming up.

[---MAD---]

I am looking into methods with which to do a more structured and open information release than we have in the past. Right now efforts are all concentrated on 3.7 but as soon as that is in beta I'll be putting something in place to help our customers stays apprised of what's going on and what's coming up.
Thank you very much - thats what we wanted. I hope to see positive results after 3.7 regarding communication :). Maybe Jelsoft's new year resolution :P?

[Razasharp]

I am looking into methods with which to do a more structured and open information release than we have in the past. Right now efforts are all concentrated on 3.7 but as soon as that is in beta I'll be putting something in place to help our customers stays apprised of what's going on and what's coming up.

Great news Kier! :cool:

Can you start of by letting us know how far things have come along with 3.7? And possibly, when might we expect to see it?

I am waiting on it for one of my new sites, and I'm trying to figure out whether I should/shouldn't wait for it (and perhaps go with current version instead)

[---MAD---]

Great news Kier! :cool:

Can you start of by letting us know how far things have come along with 3.7? And possibly, when might we expect to see it?

I am waiting on it for one of my new sites, and I'm trying to figure out whether I should/shouldn't wait for it (and perhaps go with current version instead)
Beta within the next couple of days/weeks. Stable before the new year.

Thats all we know ;).

[Mazinger]

Beta within the next couple of days/weeks. Stable before the new year.

Thats all we know ;).
Does this mean the beta testers will have a chance to test it before it's officially released?

[Wayne Luke]

Does this mean the beta testers will have a chance to test it before it's officially released?
Customers with current and active licenses usually get access to a beta version on major feature releases.

[Reeve of Shinra]

Kier, thank you for the update. :)

[Fusion]

Yeah, thanks for the update, Kier.
The only thing which belittles your input is its late arrival.

[Razasharp]

Beta within the next couple of days/weeks. Stable before the new year.

Thats all we know ;).

Where did you hear this?

If it's true that's great news!

(See, a vB Dev Blog would make it easier to find this info :D)

[Wayne Luke]

Where did you hear this?


Its taken from http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244879

Posts #45-47.

[Razasharp]

Thanks Wayne.

For everyone else, here's the convo:


My guess is this year is the beta/rc year. Stable will be out next year I would imagine.


No, sooner than that.

I think it is great news to hear 3.7 will be out by the end of the year - well done the vB TEAM!

[Analogpoint]

(See, a vB Dev Blog would make it easier to find this info :D)

I second that!

[Grover]

I am looking into methods with which to do a more structured and open information release than we have in the past. Right now efforts are all concentrated on 3.7 but as soon as that is in beta I'll be putting something in place to help our customers stays apprised of what's going on and what's coming up.

Thank you for listening and informing us, Kier! This is very good to hear.

[Dream]

I am looking into methods with which to do a more structured and open information release than we have in the past. Right now efforts are all concentrated on 3.7 but as soon as that is in beta I'll be putting something in place to help our customers stays apprised of what's going on and what's coming up.
That's good news, cheers.

[Tailfeathers]

Glad to hear. :) I hope it will be good.

[Shanj]

VB Position Statements - I was writing about this and someone else was actually posting to ask for it too as I was writing! plus loads of others need this. Has been mentioned loads and loads of times.

I have roughed out templates showing how it doesn't have to be rigid so as to trap devs into unrealistic undertakings, nor does it need to take much time to prepare and send.

I too heartily dislike the opaque "when its ready" attitude. I would NEVER speak to my paying clients like that. It's intended as realistic, but it fails to work WITH us and to recognise that we too have responsibilities to sometimes large client groups.
I think this is the one thing that I REALLY don't like about Jelsoft. Because it just ISN'T necessary. I deal with lots of software providers because I'm constantly testing services to provide for my clients. The GOOD providers do give 'some idea' as asked for all the time here.
I DO understand that a definite dated deadline is not possible.
How many times have I assumed a task in html or tweaking my board or writing instructions for staff is a 'small job' which then has me banging at it a week later still not got it right. We all know some version of that.

VB units have to work together so introducing a new chunk will run through lots of other units having an effect. All that has to be followed through methodically and made to work.
Then real life use throws up problems not imaginable in the back office so that has to be adjusted too.

But with all the unpredictability of the devs' work it is still possible to give an ESTIMATE on what is intended. Devs must have a working plan themselves so they could share a very limited version of it with us. The risk of disappointing and angering us by not managing to do it is less than the anger and frustration caused by treating us like small children made to wait in line not allowed to know what we are about to receive!

It is simply unacceptable in terms of planning our own work that we have only the haziest guesses on 3.7beta arriving some time before April 2008? That kind of inormation sharing isn't flexible. It's woolly and the right down the bottom end of being inconsiderate of client need.
That said, and it's the only time I've given solid negative feedback to Jelsoft, it's imperative to BALANCE their needs and ours.


Example of Position Statement template:
------------------------------------------------------
POSITION STATEMENT 3.7beta release Mon Dec 3 '07
------------------------------------------------------

(From Jelsoft) Note the waiver under Timing.
This information is a provisional outline only, not an undertaking to provide as described.

BUGS-------------------------------------
To get the 3.7beta ready for individual testing we have SELECT
a few more (number?)
OR quite a few more/
OR quite a lot of bugs,
which user testing as a First Look, has thrown up to address.

PRIORITY OF TWEAKS --------------------
We don't add whole new functions to a beta release once it's gone on public test, only moderate tweaks.
The tweaks we are planning to do as our selected priority are:
INSERT
* Friends/Buddies to be clearer
* Display of New events in Blog, Gallery, Groups/
* A Groups Directory page in categories
* XYZ1/
* XYZ2.

We'd like to look at covering
INSERT
* extending the colour customisation to the Gallery, Blog and user created Groups,
* ABC,
* DEF
but these items very much depend on whether the priority planned list above gets done with minimum unexpected problems and delays.

TIMING ----------------
Disclaimer: There is always the bottom line that this release arrives "when it's ready." The unexpected could reduce what is included as tweaks, and delay timing of the release.

What we would LIKE and what seems possible at the moment is to get the
INSERT/CHECK [3.7 beta release]
out on the plan above,
by INSERT
before the end of December
OR mid January 2008

The team certainly don't want the release to delay more than INSERT
the end of January
but we would stress again that we cannot make any 100% undertaking at this stage.

Thank you for your loyalty to VBulletin, the best forums and community software online. We hope you find the above provisional outline helpful in your own provisional planning of your own VBulletin project/s.

Signature
Date
---------------------------------------------
End of Position Statement template.
---------------------------------------------

Please note I am NOT presenting this confrontatively.
I am NOT asking the devs to "complete this form NOW" - or ever!
I am offering this as the kind of flexible information plan which a provider should be able to offer their clients.

An update might look like this:

--------------------------------------
Update to Position Statement 3 Dec '07

BUGS Since Mon 3 Dec '07 we removed many of the bugs tand are down to small number left: 3.
TWEAKS We regret that the hoped for tweak COPY/PASTE
extending the colour customisation to the Gallery, Blog and user created Groups,
is not going to be possible if we are to cover our first priority list.
TIMING We are now feeling more confident of releasing by COPY/PASTE
the end of December
OR We are sorry that we will need to aim at release by
mid January.
INSERT SELECTION OF FRIENDLY SIGNOFF
* Not long now! Thanks for your patience. We do understand you "can't wait" and we wish we didn't have to ask you to.
* We are working extra hard to try to keep to the provisional plan. Plese bear with us and we'll have the new release with you as fast as we can without compromising its quality.
* Etc.

Signature
Date
---------------------------------------------
End of Update template.
---------------------------------------------

--

[Lizard King]

I am not sure what job you are doing but on software development you can never have a release date as coding may bring tons of new problems and bugs. I know if you try to cacth a release date you can make mistakes. Even a wrong spelled word can cause damage on tons of vbulletin users. That is the main reason. They donot want to put themself in a panic situation and i also donot want developers to be in a panic situation. Thats why i prefer Jelsoft not to give any information about the release dates. I also know that if they supply a release date and on that date if they donot release the product for some reason the forums will be fulled with complain messages.

My main request is to learn more about vBulletin 4.0. Kier once stated (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1445658&postcount=212) that Jelsoft will be more informative on their plans about the future of vBulletin. This is way more important for me. I will like to know about how Kier is imagining vBulletin 4.0 so i can also prepare my plans about the future developments on my site. I know i have to wait currently because 3.7 is important for Jelsoft and i respect them at this point.

[cemartin]

Again, as I stated in the other thread:


I'm sorry, but it does not fail to work WITH me, and I personally have no problem with the, "when it's ready" attitude. It is almost impossible to set a specific release date for a piece of software that is in the development stages, particularly as we (meaning the client base) are constantly requesting new features, AND reporting any bugs that we may come across.

Because of this, it is also pretty much impossible to even come up with an estimated release date, simply because the release is still being developed. As long as the team continually provides me with updates on the development of the release, I am fine, and that is exactly what they are doing right now.

Chris

[.Tim]

If vBulletin started giving dates then this board would be flooded with "why can't jelsoft get updates out on time" posts. It's lose/lose, you people will complain no matter what. You will never be happy.

[Ohiosweetheart]

as I, too, stated in the other thread...


I completely agree.

People assume that it should be easy to forecast a release date, or at least give an idea when it'll be ready. Half the people who say this aren't even coders and have no idea what goes into it. Perhaps they should get behind the scenes and try writing the code, adding new features, fixing bugs, etc etc??

Kier could have kept it a secret, not given us this preview, not given us a chance to make suggestions, or report bugs.

Likewise, Kier could even now say, "ok no more suggestions are going to be implemented, and no more bugs will be fixed" and release it tomorrow! Then people would be griping about it being released too soon :rolleyes:

The FACT is... whether we like the answer or not... it will be ready when it is ready. You want to see how it's coming along? Go take a peek in the bug tracker forum and you'll see.

[Floris]

We've had this discussion numerous times in various threads, and it's also discussed internally. Thank you for your contribution. At this point it won't make a difference. The support staff who post on these forums can't give you an ETA, as they're not running the company and don't have an ETA to share; and if they do, they are not allowed to disclose it. Asking for one is useless, but of course that doesn't stop customers. Also .. the developers will disclose the ETA, they do this when it is time to do so, in the form of an announcement. Read the announcements for information. if there's none posted, then there's no information.

[Rolla]

since you need a precise date: the official release date for vbulletin 3.7 is september 18th, 2010 at 4:23:16 GMT

no companies would use a beta forum product. suggesting they do so is a mistake on their part and yours. the only exception to this rule is vbulletin.com because they design the software.

[Shanj]

If vBulletin started giving dates then this board would be flooded with "why can't jelsoft get updates out on time" posts. It's lose/lose, you people will complain no matter what. You will never be happy.

Yes there will always be griping. Give clients good quality, it makes them want perfection. So griping is a sign you're doing good work.

You overlooked my proposal doesn't mention any dates at all.
It also gives a layered prognosis, fallback gateways for if things are slower than expected.
The whole emphasis is on SHARING the issues of uncertainty and SHARING info where possible.

"Why cant they get it out on time?" can be avoided quite a lot by regular updates. A weekly update would be great. That a fuzzy deadline eg end of this month, slides past is not usually resented if there is a courtesy explanation.
It's not being TOLD anything that is so frustrating. I'd far rather a project slipped by a week or two than just look at the months ahead and have NO IDEA how to plan my work where it depends on VB.

What people HATE is being kept in the dark. Yes a lot of us don't know much about coding workflow. But we DO know other parallel situations where work balloons out of the unexpected. Coding is NOT unique. It's just project work and lots of us know about projects - we run them using VB!

[cemartin]

"Why cant they get it out on time?" can be avoided quite a lot by regular updates. A weekly update would be great. That a fuzzy deadline eg end of this month, slides past is not usually resented if there is a courtesy explanation.
It's not being TOLD anything that is so frustrating. I'd far rather a project slipped by a week or two than just look at the months ahead and have NO IDEA how to plan my work where it depends on VB.

How can you say that we are not being told anything when there is THIS (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=249460) thread that is updated when new information on the development of the software is ready to be released to us?

This release (meaning, 3.7.0 Beta 1) is currently in the beta development stages. This means that it is not suitable for public use, and is constantly being updated and/or modified by the developers. You cannot expect the developers to release an exact date as to when it will be available to us. This is, as I said before, simply impossible.


What people HATE is being kept in the dark. Yes a lot of us don't know much about coding workflow. But we DO know other parallel situations where work balloons out of the unexpected. Coding is NOT unique. It's just project work and lots of us know about projects - we run them using VB!

Again, how can you say that we are being, "left in the dark" in regards to the development of this release? There are some people here that actually do know quite a bit about coding (myself included), and I fail to see any problem with the development process. Coding CAN be and most certainly is unique, and because of this, it is absolutely ridiculous to think that a precise release date can be given, as things are ALWAYS being modified.


This issue in particular has been around ever since I first saw VB years ago. So the issue needs to be dealt with better.

No, it does not. End of discussion.

Chris

[Shanj]

since you need a precise date: the official release date for vbulletin 3.7 is september 18th, 2010 at 4:23:16 GMT

no companies would use a beta forum product. suggesting they do so is a mistake on their part and yours. the only exception to this rule is vbulletin.com because they design the software.

I never ASKED for a "precise date" - was all my careful analysis completely unintelligible?

Quite a few of us have a site where the beta could be tested. I have a free, community level site whose members would love to test. They wouldnt mind a few glitches. But even for them I need to know if a fedw things are being addressed.

Floris, thank you. So what you're saying is this is not an issue to do with you and other board mods. Our communication need is with the devs. Fine. So we need to know how to channel that.

Asking ... is useless, but of course that doesn't stop customers.
That's pretty high handed and unbusinesslike. Customers do ask for what they want. They expect a company to listen. When customers, who pay, repeatedly ask for the same thing there needs to either be some adjustment by the company to meet the need, or CVOPIOUS PLENTIFUL explanation as to why it can't be done.
Not some of the snippy little shutoffs we get that treat our needs as irreelevant and unimportant.

In my own company I like any other company boss have issues like this. I get sick to death of explaining them. I put up pages on my poiblic site explaining. I have template emails to tweak and send. But in the end I have to sit on the phone and explain it all. Because they are my CUSTOMERS. They PAY me - so what they want, which from THEIR point of view is completely reasonable, MATTERS.
For example I have a trase competitor who does what these clients ask. It doesn't work out well but it LOOKS better at first. I still lose some people to my competitor. But I'd lose a lot more if I didn't do the explaining.

You know people keep telling US to have patience.
I think this needs to be turned round. How about you have patience with US too? and not just treat us as badly behaved kids because we are under strain because of how VB chooses to handle infosharing.

This issue in particular has been around ever since I first saw VB years ago. So the issue needs to be dealt with better.

Evidently it irritates board staff and devs when it keeps coming up.
The answer is to either adopt endless patience and endless explanations, stop the snippiness because you realise that it isn't going to stop, it's just part of the job to deal with this customer need.
OR create a systemic way to give modest amounts of info that doesn't trap risk or compromise you.
Either way it needs to be handled better.

[Onimua]

Kier (I believe it was him) has already said that after 3.7, he'll look into ways to be more communicative about the development of vBulletin. This thread just seems pretty moot right now (and kind of repetitive and pointless as it's been talked about plenty of times before).

[Steve Machol]

Kier (I believe it was him) has already said that after 3.7, he'll look into ways to be more communicative about the development of vBulletin. This thread just seems pretty moot right now (and kind of repetitive and pointless as it's been talked about plenty of times before).
Exactly. :)

[Shanj]

Could we PLEASE knock on the head the idea of "precise dates"? I don't know where on EARTH that idea came from - or rather I do not find it constructive to track the thread and name and shame.

This was NEVER part of my proposal in any way and I absolutely support the team in rejecting such an unjusifiable and unworkable requirement of them.
Coding, as I said, is not very different to many other kinds of projects where creative targets and unforeseen peskinesses stretch delivery dates.
The whole idea of precise deadlines needs to be dropped 100% as a destructive messy red herring.
-------------------------------------------------

That cleared I'm delighted to see that there is clearly concern about this issue "on the other side."
But I hadn't realised other people have ALSO put in the kind of detailed supportive proposal I did (ref to my work here being repetitive).
All Ive seen is the repeated need coming up, not any solutions. That's why I prepared a practical proposal for template reports incorporating layered target flexibility.

As Onimua said and Steve followed up, there seems to be a plan emerging for more transparency and infosharing after 3.7 (ref. Kier).
A response of gathering together past proposals, would be a useful preparation to put on one side until then.

There was one suggestion made somewhere else, for brief weekly updates. This would be great on our end but needs examining to see what it would put on the devs - might be unwelcome. While coding is broadly similar to any other design project delivery, it will have its own sub-issues that we plebeians :) can't comprehend unless explained to us.
This is exactly why discussion is helpful here so we can understand and support dev needs, and not just obsess on our own.

It's great that there is some real recognition here of how a bit of fairly modest info from dev level, would reduce a lot of fuss and anxiety. Thanks guys.

[Ace]

I deal with lots of software providers because I'm constantly testing services to provide for my clients. The GOOD providers do give 'some idea' as asked for all the time here.

Who are these providers, and can you provide a link to one of their announcements?

I don't really have anything else to add on this, everything has already been said by Mert and Onimua and Floris and everyone, but I would like to see an example of what you are requesting, just so I can see whether it works.

[Shanj]

Who are these providers, and can you provide a link to one of their announcements?
... I would like to see an example of what you are requesting, just so I can see whether it works.

Ace I'm referring to all kinds of communication software (chatrooms, messengers etc) database progs, windows widgets, website onloune services like instant edit pages and sectors, security software etc etc etc I LIKE software.

For an example of what I'm requesting here that's what I posted to start the thread. Please do have a look.

[Zachery]

But I'd like to see an example of a company that is doing what you suggest we do.

[GHOwner]

... Read the announcements for information. if there's none posted, then there's no information.

I've always wondered about this. I wonder why they assume information such as a release date will be discussed outside of an official announcement... As if anyone else would know or speak of such.

I'm excited for 3.7, it will be really fun to use the social networking, new human verification, picture galleries, social groups... and much more! I thank the vB team for their hard work! :)

Just one of the many reasons I stay with vBulletin.

[Razasharp]

I appreciate that some people have been frustrated with the way things have gone in the past - but I do believe Kier made a statement saying things were being evalutated in this regard, and that the team have changes planned that will come into play some time after 3.7 goes gold :)

Ironically, the fact that it was made in a post on the forums means not everyone would have got to see it :lol:

Perhaps a new forum can be set up in the vBulletin Announcements Discussions category to act as a temporary blog/platform for these updates?

I recently saw that Devs had updated the tag system, but only spotted it by chance, by going through one of the tag suggestion threads. (Or maybe threads can be marked 'dev participation' giving us an indication that thread is being used by the devs directly to fine tune that item).

Either way I am sure the team appreciates your effort in trying to help :) I'm sure they will go over your template and it may play a part in what they decide to do with their own scheme - if they feel it is the direction they want to go in.

[Acrobat]

You need look no further than Wayne Luke's sigtag to see how much Jelsoft gives a rat's ass how we feel.



Please do not PM me about the vBulletin 3.7 release date. You will be ignored.


So in other words, Jelsoft's answer to good customer service is "piss off".

Priceless.

[Lizard King]

You need look no further than Wayne Luke's sigtag to see how much Jelsoft gives a rat's ass how we feel.



So in other words, Jelsoft's answer to good customer service is "piss off".

Priceless.
I am with Wayne on that signature. I am also on a staff member on a software development company and you cannot imagine the PM's i am receiving daily. It is obvious that vBulletin is not supplying support through Private Messages same as the company i work. Private Messages is Private . Same as you Wayne have a right to use that feature only to talk with his friends or with people he wants to interact with. If people continue bugging him with the same question he has no other choice.
But people like you doesn't ask this question : Why

You just act , complain and bug people...

[Razasharp]

Some people do take the piss a bit on here, so I can see why the staff might get a bit peed off at times.

Maybe it could just read: Please do not PM me about the vBulletin 3.7 release date - it is not yet known, when we know more we'll post an annoucement.

[cemartin]

You need look no further than Wayne Luke's sigtag to see how much Jelsoft gives a rat's ass how we feel.



So in other words, Jelsoft's answer to good customer service is "piss off".

Priceless.

Yes, that is exactly what they're answer is, Acrobat.

In case you happened to not notice, I was being sarcastic. I simply do not understand how you people can expect them to come up with an estimated time of release, when WE, the clients, are almost continually requesting new features, feature improvements, and making them aware of new bugs.

The developers cannot see into the future, and, because of this, they cannot give us an estimated time of release. Would you rather have them release a buggy, less-than-satisfying 3.7, or a feature complete, stable 3.7?

[Michael2]

"Why cant they get it out on time?" can be avoided quite a lot by regular updates.

Look at the bug tracker. There's your update.

[Acrobat]

But I'd like to see an example of a company that is doing what you suggest we do.

You're joking, right?

Microsoft
Oracle
HP
BEA
Intuit
Adonix
Visco
Sage Software
Symantec
RIM
Adobe
Apple

...and the list goes on.

Most good software companies develop and release on a schedule. Some of them actually hit release dates, and some do not, but at least they're not telling their paying customers they will be ignored. I've never seen so much arrogance.

I would like to believe that Jelsoft cares about it's customers, but I can't find much evidence of it here.

Wayne Luke tells people they'll be ignored. Zachery seems to be trying to lead us to believe that there are no software companies that can build and release on a schedule.

I think it's great that Jelsoft has the best bulletin board software on earth, I don't think I'd ever run anything else. I just wish they weren't so inclined to tell their customers to piss off.

I lived in Great Britain many years ago (in Reading to be exact) when I worked for Apple at Stockley Park. On my first couple of weeks there, I inquired to my new mates of the possibility of heading over to Calais for the weekend to explore around. No one seemed to be that interested. As the new Yank in town I asked why. My mate Glen said, "France is a great country, it's a pity about the French, though".

That pretty much sums up how I feel about vBulletin and Jelsoft.