Members Only Area

[ToraTora!]

I was curious as to how many people would feel this to be a viable argument, or implementation, so that VB admin could take in account what the members would like to see regarding a open source, or shared information area that would be for members only.

I am concerned with this topic, as of the last few days some really great hacks, (simple ones to..lol..) were cut down, and ritefully so (this is not a problem with me) due to a file that could be shared with all people visiting the boards was available, and thus causing just concern of the ownership and development staff of vbulletin, towards information sharing.

I realize, as all should, that this is not a open resource project. Many people visiting here without licencess, are here to of course pick up on what they can, to learn more about VBulletin as a product for thier use, and some are here to really pick up on vbulletin for thier own profit.

What this poll represents, is a request, or open letter of sorts to the administration, developers, and paying, licence holding members, to have a area strictly for those who are the above menitioned, so that we as members can exchange files of content, or hack modifications through these forums, in the light of day, without fear of ramifications, or non-members with a sense of posting worthless info, stealing information, or posting damaging files that could possibly incur without much consequence.

Please vote, and also leave a opinon to your thoughts.

This is in no way endorsed by the staff or admin here at vb.
I felt it was a good poll to address, and maybe draw attention to a lingering thought, or problem as of late. :)

[ToraTora!]

i really thought this would go over better than this. I guess we will in time see three or more threads asking the same thing later down the road when another great hack is lost because there was no way to distribute it.

i think it would be a great asset to the board, or members area, for the actual licence holders of VB.
Exchanging ideas, or hacks are kind of hampered rite now, and im sure there are a few hacks out there that are sitting on a shelf, because the creator of that hacks knows he/she cannot post them up here.

[JamesUS]

I agree that it is a good idea but there are a few issues with running it. How does stuff get added? It would have to go via John or James (or a mod if they give us access) and that would take even longer.

If it does get set up it won't be for a while yet I'm afraid.

[ToraTora!]

well, lets see...those are good points.

I guess i can address a couple of those issues, by referring to the licence numbers in our profile feilds, or by the log-in like we use already to access the new release/upgrade download areas, except this would be another area, to that area. Maybe a mini forum in that area with download capabilities. The files would be submitted, and than mod approved through the control panel for size, and or content, and than since that person is posting or submitting in there, the account is now trackable, or held accountable...if its a hack that causes nothing but headaches or grief, the hack could be removed, or something along those lines....

I dont know i guess....its kind of a catch 22. I clicked on a few guys links the other day in here, and it took me to boards that are not even vb, and I guess it kind of got me thinking.
There is just really no area where a person can trade around things without the worry of somebody picking it up that shouldnt,
except for a seperate members area type of deal..

lol..hell. i dont know anymore...lol...

[JamesUS]

That's a good idea actually. I'm sure John and/or James will get something set up eventually, however they are both very busy at the moment so it might take a while :)

[Wayne Luke]

My personal opinion is that you are making things overly complex...

There is no reason to post whole source files. Some pretty complex hacks have been made that didn't have source code posted. All they had to do was post their changes... find this, add this, replace this, with this..

I actually looked at the Advanced Moderator Control panel hack and implemented on my Site. However the added code was about 10 lines in one file and 3 in another. For that he had to redistribute the entire set of files for the moderator control panel?

Most of them he didn't touch. I would distribute mine modifications but my control panel looks nothing like the shipping version and I have totally rewritten the code to fit my needs and provide my Advisors with the resources they need.

[ToraTora!]

True. I do agree with that, however, i dont think its being overly complex. It would be nice to have a area that people could grab a copy of a phpcode script they mangled, (it happens...accidents do happen...lol..) or even a few custom templates from scratch. I have a few of those lying around i would like to share, but they are far from being pint sized to say the least.
A guy could zip them up i suppose, and add them here, but then your in the same boat as you were before.
Now, dont take this the wrong way...im not out to start a enemy firing squad here. Im pointing out things that i think could be beneficial to some, and those who dont think so now, could find out later it wasnt such a bad idea after all.

I look at Tube dogs online hack, or even his star hack, and my eyes start to litterally bleed. Its alot of stuff (needed of course, and very well done) however, wouldnt it be easier, just to grab a couple of the php scripts such as showthread.php, upload it, and be done with it?
When i first started messing with the php code, i was completely lost...remove line blah, and add line take this add that....I am still lost sometimes looking through these scripts....
another good example was a particular hack in here, where i couldnt even understand the guys english....it was a good hack, but the hell if i am going to mess around with somebodys script, if they forget to add a space, a period, use words that contradict themselves like cut paste add and remove....and than crunch everything so damned tight together, you cant tell where one line ends, or another begins... Thats where 90% of these mistakes, and constant hounding of hack writers comes from, is the mistakes of new guys farting around with greek mythology language, and poorly written instructions. Half the load of complaints on these hacks could be resolved just with this one idea.

Lets say tubedog comes out with another huge hack. he normally would have a thread, with all of the info on it, cut and paste, add here, find line this and that, go here, cut this out, add this...
when all he could do, is make a copy of a couple of his modded php files, or templates...set them up, and that would be that.
Perfectly coded rite from the man himself, without any user mistakes to go along with it. No adding one to many } or missing ; deleting the wrong line, adding things in the wrong places...etc...etc...
Done the first time perfect. If it worked on his setup, than by this method, it will work for anyone without any problems. It would save all of you guys a ton of headaches i think...but thats just me talking...

Thats just one of the reasons i would like to see this go through.

The other issues are people grabbing tidbits here and there, that are not even members.....but thats a whole nother story. :)

[leadZERO]

There are always ways to not have to include a source file. If you have to change enough of the file to warrant distribution why not just include that file with a require() statement. Then just replace the guts of the function with a call to a function in the req'd file. Basically you will just make the function in the original file a wrapper function.

Sure it adds the overhead of another function call, but that won't amount to much, even given the amount of traffic some boards see.

[JohnM]

And then there's the issue of installing multiple hacks...

[ToraTora!]

well, with multi hacks, one could actually put together a multii hack package, because of this idea. The possibilities are pretty well open.

[Martz]

Complete files as hacks are not viable for development imho. If you want to use 2 hacks, you would have to search through them and compare, and then hack it all together - which makes it more difficulty rather than easier.

I wish I could have grabbed a copy of the Advanced Control Panel mod, its #1 on my wish list. However, when upgrades are applied, rehacking is going to be even more difficult.

Wouldn't this be a violation of the license agreement anyway? Regardless if the other person is licensed - vB shouldn't cannot be distrubuted. (some please correct me if I am wrong) :)

However I am 100% in favour of a members forum to create a safe habour for genuine members to use. Even if another or vB was installed in the existing members area - this would be a good start.

Just my 2p :)

[ToraTora!]

Well, thats kind of the whole point to this, being that it is a members area, only licenced members would be allowed in. Just like when you have to enter in your name, and account number at the actual members page, to download a upgrade, or a new version, this would entail the same details.

Meaning in short, its not really redistributing due to the fact members are already allowed access to upgrades of the official vb product. The hacks, could ALL be put into one big package.
A few volunteers could assemble all of the hacks that are viable for whatever release, complile them into one add on, test them, draw up DETAILED instructions, and that would solve a good percentage of user error.

[thewitt]

I would not want all the hacks made rolled into one package for installation unless I could selectively apply them. There are a number of hacks I want no where near my vB installation thank you very much :).

I'm on the fence about a member only area. My board is in support of a membership based organization, and though I'm looking at ways to let people identify themselves as members - at this time visitors (once they join the board) have full access to the site.

A members-only area has it's interesting applications, but I have no intention of making a member only area where elite status is provided - that often turns off potential new members before they join. The community on my board currently helps both members and non-members alike. I don't want that to be changed by having an area where only members converse.

I fear that this board may also degrade into member vs non-member elitism should we go too far in that direction.

-t

[ToraTora!]

that is a very good point thewitt, however, a script exchange program in this area for new beginners or owners of vb could help immensely on selling the product in the long run. One of the complaints i have seen on a regular basis, is the "unfreindly to new users" complaint.
If they wanted a current hack, but lacked the know how to do so, they could send a copy of their php file, or files, to the board, the changes would be made by a volunteer that was deemed appropriate for the task, and than sent back, or posted with the modification as a whole. Or, the whole script posted with the changed to begin with. Templates, js code included. There are alot of possiblities to this.

There are some great hacks out here currently, and one in particular is TubeDogs online hack. If you were a new user, never used, or even seen php, html, or anything pertaining to code, would you want to mess with it? lol...
Thats my whole point really in a nutshell. Make it as easy as you can for the owner of a VB product. New, old, experienced, non experienced, etc....
I strongly believe it would cut down on a huge amount of support issues in the hack rhelm, and the constant pestering of the hack creators.

My initial stance on the new user who wanted things easier was pretty self indulgent i will admit. I believed that if the person did not have the knowledge to be messing with any area in question (hacks) (templates) etc...than they should find somebody that did. Basically, this would solve that problem for them.

Thats my take.

[thewitt]

I don't have anything against making it easier for the novice, however that will lead to more support in my opinion, and not less.

I suspect you will transfer the problem from "How do I edit this PHP file to add this hack?" to "How do I get my vB running again - the whole thing stopped."

If someone is not capable of editing a PHP file and adding in the necessary lines of code to support a hack, they will be back for help for many, many problems that you and I take for granted.

Not to mention the hacks that add fields or tables to the database. If you don't know how to edit a PHP file, you don't have any business making schema changes to your vB configuration. It's these same novice users who tend to not back up their databases, and don't have a clue what files are needed in an installation or an upgrade. vB is just not that hands-free today with regards to installing, upgrading, hacking or maintaining.

Not saying it's generally a bad idea, just don't delude yourself that making hacks easier to install will reduce the support load - it will simply shift from one set of questions to another.

-t

[ToraTora!]

there is a element of suprise in every hack granted.
I think that initially, one person from a volunteer group of seasoned hacks could take a look at the code first, test it out, make sure that there are no problems or drawbacks, and than deem it worthy for inclusion with a dificulty rating to go with the hack. Rite now, at any one of these hacks in this very forum, there are pages upon pages of fixes, problems, bugs...etc...but the first page always shows the hack download itself. Kind of deceiving isnt it? Most people download it, try it out, and than add another page to a long list of already discussed problems to that particular hack. This idea would clear up a good portion of that, because if it is not in that area, than its really not worth messing with. Rite now, its a crap shoot, and i basically look for a hack with trusted names on it, or is a simple enough hack that i can revert without much time or difficulty.

Changes to php files are one of the biggest modifications that usually need to be done, and the ones that can cause the white screen of death if done improperly. This also includes some of the directions to some of the existing hacks already provided in here.
One misread instruction, or typed instruction i should say, cost me a half hour of time because the person has a bit of a grammer problem. Cleaning up some of the hacks, and keeping ones that are viable for use, or certain hack versions, for certain versions of VB, i think would be a great step in making sure these hacks even work. I know that hacks are not supported by VB, and that is not what I am asking for them to do in this case. The basic premise of this area would be to let a select group sift through the hacks, categorize them, clean them up, post the php files for inclusion or templates, or even js, and than post them up.
If the script is posted, with the hack contained, after it has been tested and approved of, than the new user would only know how to use basic cut and paste skills, and basic FTP knowledge.

[thewitt]

Ah, but there is nothing to keep you, or anyone else interested, in cleaning up hacks today and re-posting them in the existing forum.

How, and more importantly why, would a private, member-only hacks forum change that?

If you (or me, or Wayne, or anyone else) wants to take an existing hack, rewrite the documentation, clean up the code and post it again we can.

I'm not trying to discourage your idea, just looking for more justification. I'm sitting on the fence here, remember...

-t

[ToraTora!]

yes thewitt, i understand. (ill try and get you over to this side here if i die trying...lol..)

Anyways, to justify the argument of cleaning up code in this forum, its obvious that it has been overlooked. Some of the hacks in here have litteraly been abandoned by the creator, leaving those who installed the hack basically helpless, or to thier own devices if there are bugs, or problems present.
Those are hacks, that after 12 pages of thumbing through, you now realize there is no hope. Many of the problems associated with those cries for help, all stem from misappropriaton of the modified code, or adding code to the wrong version of VB.
It is not the main concern of previous hacks that intrigue this idea of mine, however, the new ones that require some js modifications, or as a whole, some major modifications to the php script.
A couple of hacks that I myself have, cannot be posted under the current guidlines. The hacks have issues with a couple php files, a java script issue, and of course a whole template modification. I would rather be on the safe side, and not piss the admin off here by even trying to post them in here.
If i post it even in bits and pieces, there are going to be a mass amount of questions, that I myself would almost choose to ignore.
The other fact of this is, one template needs to be completely posted....there are no ways around that one.
I can draw the instructions out as best as i can, however i would rather just post the modified script as a whole, and let it go at that. Simplify the process sort of speak. The more instructions that are added, the more possiblities for problems, and that again leads to the support issues of some of the hacks. There are guys that figure, since its there, thats it. They did their part by contributing the code, and if there are support issues, your at your own devices.
Which, in some cases is fine. They did something that is basically art, and trying to describe how they painted a mona lisa is not going to happen.

My biggest concern is that a ton of problems could be solved in just this hack area. A one on one support basically. The hack, now that it has been physically approved, can be up for release, with the needed full files for either use, or reference, and a difficulty rating by the head volunteer hacks themselves. (Many of these hacks are interpreted as easy by some people. They do not realize the amount of work it will take to add a "simple" hack, until they get into it deeper).
I would also like to reference a full hacked file online, just to see where the code was added.
So if anything, If for some reason I cannot use the file because it was a late addition, or i already have a ton of hacks in that particular php file, i can reference back to it, to compare the hack in that file, and what it should look like in my file. Rite now, its a tid bit of code, and than "Find this"
Some are gracious enough to add lines to the code such as "Find this code, around line 343"
That is fine, but i would think that having a full file for a reference point, lets say showthread.php, with a highlighted area of where the code goes, with notes to why its there, and what it does there, which line its on, etc... would also give people a little insight to what it is that this code actually does to begin with. I know nobody is getting paid here to be a teacher, so please leave that comment out. Im just saying that the more familiar that members are with thier code, the more they will slowly grasp the ideas and hacks, and further develop their own. Than of course you could offer the full showthread.php hack for people to download, or crop and paste.

Of course, this is just one argument to the idea of a members area. The others also stem from many people here offering hacks that are not licenced, dont even have a open board, or for that matter own vb, and that troubles me a great deal. In cases with hacks especially. People that are new to this, are assuming that everyone here has good intentions, and is providing trouble free and security problem free code. What would happen if somebody intrusively adds a code, that deliberitly allows a security issue? Members area would clear that up, for its a members only area, and if its posted by a member, and used by a member, than if there are issues such as that, we know who to go after.
Rite now, you have a few annonymous posters offering hacks in my opinon. There are a few well documented hackers here who i trust completely, but there are a few that I wouldnt give the price of cheese to. Those are people that new users have no idea about, and as well, probably wont until its to late.

Hacks are yes, a use at your own risk type of deal, but some of the hacks are so good that you cannot help but want to use them. This would basically make "hack" a bit of a safer word, and assure people that the hack they are getting is not only done by a paying, licensed, competent member, but also getting something that they can actually use with little, or no problems, with reference script, a full hack script, and a little help and support.

than of course there is the other issue of having vb certified, non hack, backup copies of php files online in this member area as well.
I am almost certain, that i do not stand alone in the "oh shi*, did i back that up?" department.
Lets just say it would be for reassurance purposes, just like the "revert to old template" feature in vb now. Of course, that may also prompt people to now do things to their board that they shouldnt be messing with anyways, however, its going to happen regardless. At least there will be some sort of band-aid to fix a major boo-boo.

[dwh]

Code hacks section should be in a members area. Not doing so is an invitation to hackers to find holes in hacks which less advanced hack writers may not realize they opened.

If it's in a member area, it has less chance to be poached. And you don't have to be paranoid to believe that there's plenty of people here who are here only looking for holes. Hacks are the weakest link. Goodbye.

I realize people will think I'm going too far, potential buyers will want to see what hacks are available. Once in a blue moon, a ubb hacker comes here to port their hack...maybe there's a way.

[ToraTora!]

thats a very strong argument, backed with cause for concern. there have been a few people here that have been hacked.
The problem of it all is, who, why, where, and how. Could be a lucky guesser for all I know...lol..BUT, the cause for concern is still, and always will be there when you leave the front door open like the hack area is.

[dwh]

An even stronger argument rests for the bug reports section to be in member's area. Case in point:
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=144829#post144829

[ToraTora!]

yeh, thats something that I knew awhile back (bitmaps) however,
that really is not the point.
Those who visit any member's VB forums, and curiously click on the link to Vbulletin, also now know about it, and that can be a major problem on some poor bastard barely clingling on to bandwidth. Not to mention the complete disarray it brings to the forum display.

[ToraTora!]

damn it people, if you are voting no, than give a reason for doing so, or just vote for the third choice, which is "I dont want to get involved".

your opinon may enlighten some of us that think this is a good idea.

[Wayne Luke]

I haven't said much on this but have been following the thread...

Anyway here are the points I would like to raise:

Pro's
1. Potentially cut down on Piracy but not much...
2. More secure.
3. Could allow greater distribution of files.


Con's
1. Would make it more difficult to add multiple patches if entire files are released.
2. Customers would demand support for Hacks even if we don't have any background of them.

3. (This is the worst)... It would turn the vBulletin community into a two-tier user community with the Haves and Have-nots... I am all for stopping piracy and software theft however there isn't a need to create a group of pariah to shove in this group. I feel rather strongly that it is my business and Jelsoft's business as to what my license position is. However a lot of people want to know who here has paid and who hasn't. This is a breach of privacy of the strongest sense and should not be tolerated. I shouldn't have to pay $30 a year to receive support or look at Hacks.

I happen to work on a licensed copy for SitePoint. However I also work on other copies of vBulletin for other people as well usually through this forum. I do not release the information they give me and I expect the companies I do business with to do the same. Any moderator can attest that I have not entered in SitePoint's license details in my profile, nor will I do so. It is not my license. They have granted me permission to use it for their benefit and they trust me with the information, I am not about to disclose it without permission, even in such a limited way.

Having everything to do with support and sharing knowledge locked behind "closed doors" will have a detrimental effect on the community as a whole. Knowledge should be shared, commercial software should not. If this makes everyone's job more difficult, so be it at least knowledge will be available for those who seek to attain it. By locking things away, who knows how many sales will be lost.

[aldamon]

I strongly agree with Tora's suggestion:

wluke's point:
1. Would make it more difficult to add multiple patches if entire files are released.

Counterpoint:
*** I think Tora has said this a couple times, but it would be infinitely more convenient to have a fully hacked file to reference. I think there is some confusion here. We don't want to just copy the new file to the server and go (which would overwrite a file for every hack). We want it as a reference! Now, if we're using the hacked file as a reference point, how can that be more difficult than trying to follow line-by-line instructions in sometimes indecipherable English? If you were trying to implement multiple hacks, what would you rather do? Compare two or three complete, correct files and hack away or try to decipher line-by-line instructions, hack in the dark and hope for the best?

-----------------

wluke's point:
2. Customers would demand support for Hacks even if we don't have any background of them.

Counterpoint:
*** Vb has had no trouble in the past defining and sticking to it's support parameters. Customers have "demanded" lots of things on this board but you admirably stick to your guns. Why would you stop after implementing this suggestion?

------------------

wluke's point:
3. (This is the worst)... It would turn the vBulletin community into a two-tier user community with the Haves and Have-nots... I am all for stopping piracy and software theft however there isn't a need to create a group of pariah to shove in this group. I feel rather strongly that it is my business and Jelsoft's business as to what my license position is. However a lot of people want to know who here has paid and who hasn't. This is a breach of privacy of the strongest sense and should not be tolerated. I shouldn't have to pay $30 a year to receive support or look at Hacks.

Counterpoint:
*** First of all, make the members only sections private and invisible to non-members. If they can't see it, they won't want it! Secondly, I am a "have" and damnit I SHOULD get some preferencial treatment and protection from hackers. Keep your information sections open. Keep your support sections open. But why on earth would you want your bugs and hacking sections open to the public and worst yet, to the NON-PAYING public! vB is NOT compiled software! You are basically making it easy for a pirate to download the software (warez), examine the code, learn and discuss the weaknesses (itemized on the board) and then discuss hacks and implement them at will. Even worse, they can create hacks with back doors and post them to YOUR user base unchecked!!! How does this make sense?

Please consider this suggestion! It makes sense and protects my company's investment (and my ass as the guy who implemented vB) as a paying customer!

[dwh]

Not that there's no validity to what wluke has said. There is. It's difficult to have it both ways. But I think the argument is strong for at least bugs and hacks to be password protected. But that's not why I'm replying. I'm replying to suggest a compromise.

How about a secured subforum for hacks and bugs. When a moderator deems a hack is unsafe or a bug could severe, it can be moved to the subforum...Paranoids like me can choose if we want to place our hacks in the protected forum or not...

There are issues with this too (like fully paid vb owners who happen to be hackers will go right to the protected forum to scour for holes and he wouldn't even have to wade through many messages because in effect the moderators have clearly identified the trouble hacks/bugs...

Another issue is that organizationally, subforums in this case, sucks.

sigh, nothing is easy :)

[ToraTora!]

Originally posted by dwh
Not that there's no validity to what wluke has said. There is. It's difficult to have it both ways. But I think the argument is strong for at least bugs and hacks to be password protected. But that's not why I'm replying. I'm replying to suggest a compromise.

How about a secured subforum for hacks and bugs. When a moderator deems a hack is unsafe or a bug could severe, it can be moved to the subforum...Paranoids like me can choose if we want to place our hacks in the protected forum or not...

There are issues with this too (like fully paid vb owners who happen to be hackers will go right to the protected forum to scour for holes and he wouldn't even have to wade through many messages because in effect the moderators have clearly identified the trouble hacks/bugs...

Another issue is that organizationally, subforums in this case, sucks.

sigh, nothing is easy :)


the point of my argument is, to take the hacks, and files, and move them from the forums here, and into a members only area. NOT to add a hidden forum.
Whats the difference?

Try logging into the members area that exists with your forum account name. Not going to work is it?
Just as vb assigns username, and password when you buy the licence, they can have this seperate area for people that have bought the licence, and have to log into this area with that information, in order to make sure its valid. The whole point to this, is to keep the people that are paying, and or licenced by vb, in a area that we as members, can feel confident that those in that room, are also licenced users of the vb product, and not some fly by night hack with bad intentions.
Thats my point.

[Delhaze]

Well here is my take on it.

We have asked for a members forum, it doesn't look like we are going to get it.

In the short term, as I have only recently purchased a 1 year license, it means nothing to me, VB is currently the best forum software and is worth the cost for the features alone.

In the longer term, in 1 years time, I will go for a free alternative, which by then should be as powerful.

Why?

What's the point of paying for software, when alternatives are available that are as good for free.

Well you would have thought that excellent support and member benefits would be the answer, but as can be seen by this thread, and many others - this simply isn't true.

[tubedogg]

I hate to compare UBB and vB, and for that matter free boards with either of these, but none of them provide a "members-only" forum or area like you describe. In addition, you would be hard-pressed to find a board as good as vB that is free. phpBB is, in my mind, not comparable, and there are virtually no other boards out there within range of either vB or phpBB.

I take offense at your support comments. We all work our butts off to answer questions and help people. In addition to support in these forums, the developers and support staff answer questions via the support ticket system, and the developers work hard to reproduce problems/possible bugs and to fix them.

I don't know what other "member benefits" you want - there's nothing stated anywhere that members get anything besides the software and support. I personally feel the "member" connotation is wrong - you are customers with access to download software, not members.

I feel it would be a mistake to offer hacks in a member's area type setting because it would reinforce the idea that Jelsoft supports hacks, which we do not. I guarantee no matter what is said in this thread, the number of support requests for hacks would go up dramamatically if they were placed in an official member's area.
Beyond that I would see no possible reason to separate the forums.

I also feel the idea of your post is "give me what I want or I'll go elsewhere". I would say, fine, then go elsewhere. Just because we don't implement a suggestion, that really doesn't affect the product at all, immediately, or that we decide in the end not to implement it at all, is a pretty poor reason to not use the product.

[ToraTora!]

To kind of wrap this argument up in a nutshell, i beg people to look around a little bit. I checked another forum's software hack section out, and low and behold, one the members here, has a link to a hack he made, to his board which is vb to display what it looked like, in the competitions forum hack area. So, my feeling is, there are people playing two sides of the fence in this forum arena. They buy the software to check it out, and than when a few things are needed for another system, they hand it over. Now, of course there are differences in some of the forums granted, however, lately, the gap is closing on the differences. Alot of the forums i see now, resemble VB in just about every area, and are free. They to are php, they to have polls, and features that VB does not have, or addressed the possiblities of having anytime soon.

The big difference in customer support, or availability of hacks, and/or information is when you go to visit some of these forums,
most of the "goodies" are behind a shield of protection. Namely, "licenced" areas.
I personally have had nothing but great respect and support for the VB support team, so I cannot even begin to comment on that area. There has not been a question, or comment left unanswered by the VB team on any issue i present, and I do my share of asking. :)
I feel that without that added bonus, one would be inclined to look elsewhere.
VB is one of the best systems a person can use.

We believed in the product so much that when our former server, (who offered a competetor's software) accused us of using to much bandwidth in our testing phase, and promptly restricted access to our vb forum, (citing that we should be using their software instead because vb has been known to cause these problems) we promptly cancelled our account.

There is a brand name loyalty with VB, and basically my thoughts are, if members want something that can provide a bastion of familiarity, or a bonus of being a licenced member, with a secure feeling of familiar and recognizeable offerings to those who buy and support VB, than give it to them.
Currently there are way to many issues with some of these hacks, some of sources of these hacks, and basically some of the people that use the hacks.
People who do not have current licences should NOT be either posting hacks, or even downloading them.
It totally defeats the purpose of paying for a licence, and almost indicates that a open source project that is free may be the better route.

I trust VB, and I also trust that in time, this issue may prevail when enough members get off thier ass and do a little voting on topics such as this.
After all, business is a form of listening to the customer, but when the customer is not talking, than what exactly needs to be improved, or what needs to be added, when nothing is being said?

[tubedogg]

You keep saying that some hacks are from 'suspect' sources. Most of the hacks in the Releases forum are from myself, Wayne, Kier, Ed, Freddie, dwh, and other respected members. There are some that are not, but most of these are small 5 or 10 line hacks. I'm almost positive there is not one hack in that forum that is by someone who is not a registered user of vB.

If you are suspect of a hack, don't download it. Don't apply it. If you have questions about security, ask the poster or post a new thread in the main Code Hacking forum asking us.

People who don't own licenses can download all they want - it won't do them any good. You could not rebuild vB from the infromation in the hacks forum.

If you are extremely worried about security, you should read up on PHP and MySQL before applying any hacks so you can determine the safety; or you should not apply hacks at all. That would be my advice in general - you should not be applying hacks if you don't know what they are changing in the code.

[dwh]

what he said

[ToraTora!]

Originally posted by tubedogg
I hate to compare UBB and vB, and for that matter free boards with either of these, but none of them provide a "members-only" forum or area like you describe. In addition, you would be hard-pressed to find a board as good as vB that is free. phpBB is, in my mind, not comparable, and there are virtually no other boards out there within range of either vB or phpBB.


I wasnt impling that Vb is a sub-standard product. UBB does have a area where you do need to be a member to download hacks. It may be just a forums member type of deal i dont know, however, since we use VB, im none to inclined to sign up for a board I dont support in any faction of the word "support"


I take offense at your support comments. We all work our butts off to answer questions and help people. In addition to support in these forums, the developers and support staff answer questions via the support ticket system, and the developers work hard to reproduce problems/possible bugs and to fix them.


I have no problems with the support, and never addressed that as being a issue. I personally have logged in a great deal of "tickets" which have been answered in perfect detail each and every time I submitted one. Once again, this is not a issue with, or about support.


I don't know what other "member benefits" you want - there's nothing stated anywhere that members get anything besides the software and support. I personally feel the "member" connotation is wrong - you are customers with access to download software, not members.


See, now I have never had any issues with opinons based in here as a whole, or partial sentimant, however, this one sort of sparks a bit of anger in myself. If we are merely nothing but customers, than the old adage of "give us what we want" and "we are never wrong" should be now accounted for. I use the term member, because member is support. Customer, is merely a guinee pig buying a product until they find something better, or do comparisson shopping on the cheaper product, which does exist.
There is a great deal of difference in "member" and "customer"
Members are what will be here the next day, and fully support the product until whenever they deem appropriate.
A customer can come and go as he/she feels, and will leave at the drop of a dime to use the "next best thing" because it has one thing the current system, or product doesnt.


I feel it would be a mistake to offer hacks in a member's area type setting because it would reinforce the idea that Jelsoft supports hacks, which we do not. I guarantee no matter what is said in this thread, the number of support requests for hacks would go up dramamatically if they were placed in an official member's area.
Beyond that I would see no possible reason to separate the forums.


Whether Jellsoft does, or does not support the hacks, the hacks are still presented in these forums. That is the reality, and for new users that do not know any better, they also assume that jellsoft has some hand in these hacks. Especially when the hacks are presented from either developers of vb, or moderaters of vb.
We can bs each other all day on this topic, but the fact remains, hacks are presented here, and you can put all of the disclaimers you want on it, people are still going to go to vbulletin.com to get them for thier board.
Why not make a area that is more comprehensive for the "customer"? I have stated several issues, at least a dozen times on why this area would be more than just a member (customer) perk. Im not going to go through them all again, but the main issue is to keep people that DO NOT support vb in any financial means what-so-ever, and to keep the "customers" better informed on what it is exactly they are doing to their board with the hacks they implement.


I also feel the idea of your post is "give me what I want or I'll go elsewhere". I would say, fine, then go elsewhere. Just because we don't implement a suggestion, that really doesn't affect the product at all, immediately, or that we decide in the end not to implement it at all, is a pretty poor reason to not use the product.

Now, that comment alone was uncalled for. We are stating a loyalty here, and that is not the issue of whether or not we are going off and getting a different product. Im not going anywhere regardless of the decision. Besides, this topic is a general suggestion, not a pissing post.
The issue is plainly one, of removing some of these indiscretions out of the public eye, and into a area which is secured, supported, and member endorsed. I hate paying for something that I feel can be offered for free from somebody else just as much as the next guy, but to not give a objectional view to why this is not a good idea, and to reply that the opinon is a departure statement based on the lack of this idea, is not a very good avenue for discussion. Improvements such as this have been voiced for months here. I have not belonged to the VB community as long as many here, however, i do read, and had read a great deal prior to owning vb. Some of the issues that were presented in the forums, could also be bad for business. When somebody posts "security problems" etc...that is a almost immediate bookmark burner for those who are contimplating this software. Even though most of us know that with any scripting there is going to be this possiblity, other "customers" assume that everybody knows what they are doing, and that securtity is a problem associated with substandard software.
Things of that nature should be posted in a serperate members forum anyway, because there are people that scour these boards looking for any idea, or inclination to find that elusive tid-bit of information to indeed hack a unsuspecting "customer" of vb.

That in itself should be enough reason, but if you want more reasons, I will be sure to add more, that do not pertain to nothing including hacks. This is a issue of more than just hacks, or scripts. With a footer that includes vbulletins link in it, any member of anybodys board here can find out any damned thing they want to know, whether it be good or bad. That also goes for potential customers as well.

[Delhaze]

Originally posted by tubedogg
I hate to compare UBB and vB, and for that matter free boards with either of these, but none of them provide a "members-only" forum or area like you describe. In addition, you would be hard-pressed to find a board as good as vB that is free. phpBB is, in my mind, not comparable, and there are virtually no other boards out there within range of either vB or phpBB.

Comparison have to be made, thats how customers currently end up buying VB. At the moment VB wins because the additional features over the competitors justify the price.

I take offense at your support comments. We all work our butts off to answer questions and help people. In addition to support in these forums, the developers and support staff answer questions via the support ticket system, and the developers work hard to reproduce problems/possible bugs and to fix them.

Which is exactly what you would expect for your license fee. And the level of support when given is excellent.

However there are a lot of examples where if the customer asked for something that VB team dont agree with, or where they want to run their forums in a different way than the team had anticipated there are ignored or told to change to the VB way of thinking.

I don't know what other "member benefits" you want

You do know at least one, there is a vote telling you. A members area, where we can can download modified/hacked source code, because some hacks are just too difficult to follow/document the current way. It's not that it can't be done, it's that we want an easier way of doing it.

there's nothing stated anywhere that members get anything besides the software and support.

Not exactly a plus point that one.

I personally feel the "member" connotation is wrong - you are customers with access to download software, not members.

Granted, but the "member area" tag comes from your own website.

I feel it would be a mistake to offer hacks in a member's area type setting because it would reinforce the idea that Jelsoft supports hacks, which we do not. I guarantee no matter what is said in this thread, the number of support requests for hacks would go up dramamatically if they were placed in an official member's area.
Beyond that I would see no possible reason to separate the forums.

The bottom line is that as a customer, i'm not interested in how many extra support requests you get. What I am interested in is getting my forums to work the way I want them, and if that includes features currently available only as a hack, I want an easy way to get them installed and running.

I also feel the idea of your post is "give me what I want or I'll go elsewhere". I would say, fine, then go elsewhere. Just because we don't implement a suggestion, that really doesn't affect the product at all, immediately, or that we decide in the end not to implement it at all, is a pretty poor reason to not use the product.

This is true of every product in every market in the world.

If you don't give your customers what they want, they don't buy your product.

At the moment VB is a superior product, that's why I bought it. In a year from now, others products may well be as good, but at a lower cost.

I am simply pointing out that to stay ahead you will have to have something extra to offer, and if you don't listen to your customers (in general), you won't.

[ToraTora!]

Originally posted by tubedogg
You keep saying that some hacks are from 'suspect' sources. Most of the hacks in the Releases forum are from myself, Wayne, Kier, Ed, Freddie, dwh, and other respected members. There are some that are not, but most of these are small 5 or 10 line hacks. I'm almost positive there is not one hack in that forum that is by someone who is not a registered user of vB.

I also said that I only use hacks from trusted names. I would assume that you know I have downloaded only hacks from the names you just listed, including yourself.
Also, there are some that are not. You said it, and I said it. That is why I do not download these hacks when presented from those people.
What I will say again is that the new user does NOT know the difference.

If you are suspect of a hack, don't download it. Don't apply it. If you have questions about security, ask the poster or post a new thread in the main Code Hacking forum asking us.

This is common sense. Nobody is pointing a gun at my head to download anything here. The fact of the matter of it is, its there, but nobody knows a damned thing about it until its to late, and there are 17 pages of "WHAT THE HELL WENT WRONG??"
That is another one of my points. There is a time to say..."you know what...this damned thing is not working...we better pull it because the guy who put it up there isnt offering any help to resolve the situation".

People who don't own licenses can download all they want - it won't do them any good. You could not rebuild vB from the infromation in the hacks forum.

Maybe they are not trying to build vb.

If you are extremely worried about security, you should read up on PHP and MySQL before applying any hacks so you can determine the safety; or you should not apply hacks at all. That would be my advice in general - you should not be applying hacks if you don't know what they are changing in the code.

security is a issue in many many areas, and concerns of every member here. Im not completely ignorant of the ways of security, nor what is good for business practices.
What MYSQL, or phpadmin wont tell you, is why the hell somebody would post security information in the public, or holes in code that could cause security breaches. Put that stuff in a "need to know" area in a members area. Not so the whole damned internet, member or not, can read it.
That little bitmap bug has already send a few people on a tirade.
Why? Because nobody knew nothing of it until it was posted here....
why is this so difficult to understand?
The basic premise is to keep things that are members only information, in the members only area. That means problems with code, security, hacks, etc.
Not to make vb bow to our whims and needs, as you seem to assume that is what I am trying to do.

[tubedogg]

Originally posted by Delhaze
However there are a lot of examples where if the customer asked for something that VB team dont agree with, or where they want to run their forums in a different way than the team had anticipated there are ignored or told to change to the VB way of thinking.The only thing that we have specifically disagreed with was the Lockdown hack, and that was more a matter of the way it was being asked for than the hack itself, although the hack had little use beyond piracy. We cannot change, overnight, the way a major function works, such as usergroups vs password-protected forums or encrypted passwords. In most cases, these are taken into consideration and added to the todo list. Just because you don't see something showing up the next day does not mean we are ignoring it or forcing our way of doing something. In addition you are always free to hack the code or hire someone to do that for you.

You do know at least one, there is a vote telling you.My statement indicated that beyond the members' area, I didn't know what else you wanted.

Granted, but the "member area" tag comes from your own website.No, I know that, and that's why I said "personally" I don't agree with it. Jelsoft has chosen that and they are free to put it whatever way they like.

The bottom line is that as a customer, i'm not interested in how many extra support requests you get.You may not be right now, but the more support requests arise, the longer it takes to get a question answered, and the more unhappy you and others will become. If we can take a stance right now that would limit the number of invalid inquiries (namely regarding hacks), that is in the best interest of everyone to insure the highest level of support.

What I am interested in is getting my forums to work the way I want them, and if that includes features currently available only as a hack, I want an easy way to get them installed and running.That's fine. You are free to hack your board like you want it - however we have no obligation to even allow distribution of hacks, let alone officially support you. That's my point. I don't see how you can be so seemingly outraged over us not willing to provide something that really has nothing to do with the product and is in no way even sanctioned by Jelsoft. We won't provide support to hacked boards, so why should we provide a members' area to download hacks?

Finally, keep in mind nothing has been settled. This isn't going to happen tommorrow, if it does happen, so there is no need to act as though we have said "absolutely not" and ignored your arguments.

[tubedogg]

ToraTora: The post you quoted and replied to, starting with your statement "I wasnt impling that Vb is a sub-standard product" was not meant towards you - I was replying to Delhazes' comments.

[ToraTora!]

Originally posted by tubedogg
ToraTora: The post you quoted and replied to, starting with your statement "I wasnt impling that Vb is a sub-standard product" was not meant towards you - I was replying to Delhazes' comments.

i realized that later, but there are some good points in there. :)

[tubedogg]

Originally posted by ToraTora!
[quote]That little bitmap bug has already send a few people on a tirade.Assuming you are referring to the img tag bug allowing dynamic URLs, this was fixed in RC3. That's the reason there WAS an RC3. It was announced that was a problem but it was not detailed for at least 2 or 3 weeks to allow all users to upgrade.
The only complaints I have seen regarding security bugs was about one that was fixed in Beta 4 which was released over 4 months ago.

[ToraTora!]

The main point was that it was posted in a general area where people, (member, non member, etc..) could read it. I think it would not of been the problem that it was, if it had been a bit more secretive. The post, or the thread it was concerning, has a link included somewhere in this very thread.
My concern is the people that do enjoy finding these problems, signing up for other member boards, and making life misreable in the meantime until the problem is fixed.
The IMG size code, which is not allowed any more in signatures, was a good indication, or example if you will, of "need to know".
Bugs in general should not be posted anywhere but to the members.

[ToraTora!]

here is the link.http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?postid=144829#post144829

[ToraTora!]

judging by the dates on that, it was not RC3

[dwh]

I think 42 to 7 is pretty compelling. I bet for many the security issue foremost, I just wish more people would share their reasons rather than just voting and staying silent. Come one newbies to the thread, why did you vote the way you did?

[tubedogg]

ToraTora: That issue, while maybe an annoyance, was/is not a security issue. It's also not what I was talking about.

You (or someone) mentioned that phpMyAdmin's security issues are not listed in the public. I beg to differ.
http://www.securiteam.com/unixfocus/5XP0F154VK.html
There are a number of sites in this vein, including one that reported on a pre-beta 4 vulnerability of ours:
http://securitytracker.com/alerts/2001/Mar/1001089.html
The pre-RC3 vulnerability was sent to the bugtraq list, although I don't think it was ever specifically explained here.
My point is that not listing it here is not going to keep it from the public.

[ToraTora!]

Originally posted by tubedogg
ToraTora: That issue, while maybe an annoyance, was/is not a security issue. It's also not what I was talking about.

Nor did i say it was a security issue. To the people that had this problem happen to them though, i am almost sure that they did not appreciate the fact it was posted for all to see. All it takes is for one person to read the info, and than pass it along. Although, the posting cannot be directly attributed to the problem, it didnt help matters either.


You (or someone) mentioned that phpMyAdmin's security issues are not listed in the public. I beg to differ.
http://www.securiteam.com/unixfocus/5XP0F154VK.html
There are a number of sites in this vein, including one that reported on a pre-beta 4 vulnerability of ours:
http://securitytracker.com/alerts/2001/Mar/1001089.html
The pre-RC3 vulnerability was sent to the bugtraq list, although I don't think it was ever specifically explained here.
My point is that not listing it here is not going to keep it from the public.

I mentioned that nowhere in MYSQL or phpadmin, does it state that it is good policy to post bugs or security problems openly. It was a sarcastic remark, not a point for reference. I strongly believe in "what is understood, need not be discussed" and "not everybody needs to know everything all of the time".
Posting things that most people wouldnt know about, or do not know about even after they are told, or explained what the situation was/is, should only be done in a area that is primarily, and predominantly for the members. A members info area. Not public knowledge.
:)

[Wayne Luke]

I would like to point out that all major security risks (all 2 of them) have been reported to bugtraker.com and have made their rounds on all the "alt.cracker" usenet lists... Restricting this information here doesn't help protect anyone.

I personally have decided to release and support current and future hacks for vBulletin on my own site so this matter doesn't involve my code anymore, all of which so far has been GPL.

Any code that I feel will benefit the vBulletin community in general, I will submit to Jelsoft for possible inclusion in future versions.

[dxb]

Guys keep it simple ... lets look at it from this point

I have installed 10 hacks tell now with I dont know how many files I edited

ok let say there is a new hack that involves two files and the changes in these files are not posted and I have to upload these two files to get that hack runing


this way I will loose my other hacks if the files involves my hacked files and i will go to point zero with the other hacks and it might couse some problems too


I think the way it's done now by posting only the changes is the best way ... because this way I can compare and choose and then implement if I want to ...

and I think by putting the hacks in the member area it will put more pressure on the support team because there will be a demand for support because these hacks are in the member area


anyway thats my point of view :)

[ToraTora!]

Ok, security was not the major issue of this, it sort of made its way into the discussion. The bug tracker that WLuke mentioned is one of those instances, where there really is no choice. It is something that needs or has to be done. That was not my issue at all.

If I didnt believe in jellsoft, or its product, I could of easily went with another product that was either free, or about 70.00 cheaper.
Reading about the board in general, from many sources, or customer/member posts are what prompted me to buy it in the first place.
Of course reading about other boards, security became a major concern, as did support, or technical questions, which this software has passed with flying colors. The staff here proves to me time and time again that there is no comparisson, and when our licence is up, you can be sure we will renew. Again, I feel that this is the best product a person can buy that relates to forum software.

I realized there really is no way of knowing if the hack will work for current versions of vb, or really the instructions to back it, will actually make the process a bit easier. That was my main issue.
Comparing the hacks, or comparing the php script, having back ups of the php script, or having a script that gives a detailed run down of what it actually does is just a personal opinon of mine.
I would feel much "safer" in adding the hack. I have also added a great portion of hacks that appear in these forums, however, a couple of them, actually three, have left a very bad taste in my mouth, and when its all said and done, the damned things are still here, causing more people, more problems.
Whether a person uses bad grammer, or just poor instructions, it is something that a person has to choose on their own, and I do realize that.
I also belive in the open source theory, however, i also believe in a members area as well. It is not taking things away from people, it is just making it easier for the member to distinquish what or whom they decide to trust. Having a members area closes alot of gates on people that have no licence, or have no intentions of renewing thier licence, which in the long run could promote people to actually renew or buy a licence.

I can see everybody's views in here, and there is always compromise. At no time did this become the official poll to include any features. It was a basic curiousity of mine, in hopes to enable some attention to the possiblities of this idea.

dxb, if you would read back, there is several solutions presented, in which you could choose from, which would not overwrite anything as far as hacks are concerned. The basic premise of the all in one hack, would be just for the people on fresh installs.
That would be the easiest time to do a all in one. When new hacks were introduced, than basically they would become "patches", that would have reference points, descriptions, and a basic outline that normal instructions do not provide. If you wanted to just add one hack, than that option would exist to, but with reference points in the php code that you would add to. (the script would be shown with the modifications, why, and where, and other things to make it almost fail proof)
The old adage of go here, and find this, only works if somebody provides line numbers. Alot of times, the code looks similar in areas, and than mistakes are made by ripping out the wrong code.

This idea would keep it easy, and keep things nice and neat on the hack area. I guess im a bit to detailing of a person, but some of the hacks do need a bit more work as far as presentation of instructions or detail.

Like I have said earlier, I have added a great deal of these hacks to our board, so it is not like i am suggesting this for my own personal gain. It is a idea that is based on keeping things nice and neat, detailed, and people informed on the hacks they may be adding.
Hacks added by non-members would not be a problem either in that area, and thus, when it came down to who or why, or if this person should even be contributing, the fine line of open source could be closed a bit in favor of competence, and detail.

I think this will be my last reply to this, for I am growing tired of repeating or addressing things that have been twisted a bit. I can be at fault for that, but the basic, and simple induction of a members only area, could provide those who have hacks, a avenue of really cleaning them up, making them more descriptive, so that when they finish a hack, that is it. The instructions are there in detail, and reference points are provided. In essence, the only thing that need be addressed would be thanks, for if it worked on their board, than what is presented in the members area would also work. No mistakes. Just a as is setup, complete with full scripts that are detailed.
You really cannot go wrong with reference points, or a full script provided to show where the changes were made.

Thats just my opinion though.

[thewitt]

So to drag this out a bit, and maybe clarify what you are asking without writing a novella...

You want a members only area, where only currently licensed members can participate.

In this area, you want a forum dedicated to hacks that have been blessed and better integrated into vB.

Who is going to bless a hack?

Who is going to better integrate it with vB?

Who is going to integrate hack-a with hack-b? What about hack-a and hack-c (I don't want b, but I want a and c)?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to clarify what you are asking for.

The discussion seemed to turn from having a private area where only paid customers can read and post, and moved to an area where someone (again who?) is going to do additional support work on unsupported hacks.

Help me to understand this one please.

Thanks,

-t

[fastforward]

I have no real interest whether there's a members area or not, but if there was... I would not want my hacks 'blessed' or distributed as complete 'ready to go' edited files.

The way I see it, if somebody doesn't have the knowledge or time to make the changes using manual instructions, then they shouldn't be installing the hack. This is the very reason I haven't written a nice easy php installer or distributed the required Perl modules for the usenet hack.

[dwh]

Alright, instead of escalating the argument, how about a fresh approach to it.

There are members here, myself included, who want a members only area. If Jelsoft does not want a hacking forum within that area, fine.

How about just one private forum called General Discussions and let people post what they want there and let those who don't like the idea, ignore that section? Any harm in that?

[s.molinari]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I 'll add my 2 cents anyway. I was one of the deleted hack victims or better said, I was one of the persons who wrongfully added a script to the hacks that was basically original vB source code. I did this uknowing that it broke any rules. And I think the cause of this whole discussion boils down to that. Let's say at the time I wrote the script I was aware of the rule of not posting vB source code. I would have probably given the code directly to one of the vB dev team and no one would have known that it ever existed. That the added functionality my script gives to vB is much desired by almost everyone only made things worse. But if nothing had been said, everyone would have just been tickled pink about the changes in vB2.0.2. So what is my suggestion? I'm sure that with three mod's in this forum, the hacks themselves could be moded. Your doing it at the moment anyway! (You deleted my hack within what, 30 minutes?)! In other words all newthreads in the release section of the hacks forum should be moded. That way only CLEAN hacks can and will be posted. I'm sure you guys are up to that. I think that would solve all probs. 1. The forums stays more open avoiding an elitism. 2. Hacks are only posted when they meet Jelsoft rules. 3. Any good hacks that do break the rules but can also be a beneficial part to any board, could be determined as so by the vB dev team and added to future releases. (Ok this is open for argument) 4. and most important. Other users won't know of the hack and won't have any need to want it! ;)

Just my thoughts!

Scott

[ToraTora!]

Originally posted by fastforward
I have no real interest whether there's a members area or not, but if there was... I would not want my hacks 'blessed' or distributed as complete 'ready to go' edited files.

The way I see it, if somebody doesn't have the knowledge or time to make the changes using manual instructions, then they shouldn't be installing the hack. This is the very reason I haven't written a nice easy php installer or distributed the required Perl modules for the usenet hack.


And that is the same reason i have not downloaded a hack with your name on it.
Not because your gods gift to php coding, but because that attitude of slap it up there and than say "screw em if they dont know" just shows in the long run why this idea needs to be a bigger part of this board.

[thewitt]

Originally posted by ToraTora!
And that is the same reason i have not downloaded a hack with your name on it.
Not because your gods gift to php coding, but because that attitude of slap it up there and than say "screw em if they dont know" just shows in the long run why this idea needs to be a bigger part of this board.

So back to my earlier question, who do you expect to take a hack - like this Usenet hack - and make it acceptable for download and installation?

-t

[ToraTora!]

Originally posted by dwh
Alright, instead of escalating the argument, how about a fresh approach to it.

There are members here, myself included, who want a members only area. If Jelsoft does not want a hacking forum within that area, fine.

How about just one private forum called General Discussions and let people post what they want there and let those who don't like the idea, ignore that section? Any harm in that?


will that idea still entail allowing members to post a full script?
Will it allow the free trading of full scripts, or reference scripts....probably not.

Basically, to have a members area, there has to be a reason. If there is no reason to have a secluded area, than there is no sense in having the area to begin with. IE. content. What will be in this area that makes it so "private"? Discussions?? no.
Without a area to lets say, display a full php script, or comparisons to the script, java script, or even templates, a area where certain issues or bugs can be presented instead of in the public, or a way to exchange these ideas to other members who are licenced, and are a financial supporter of vb, than there is no sense to it.

[ToraTora!]

Originally posted by thewitt


So back to my earlier question, who do you expect to take a hack - like this Usenet hack - and make it acceptable for download and installation?

-t

It shouldnt have to be done period. The person that posts it, should be able to provide a detailed amount of background or instructions to it, and if they dont, they leave it the hell off the board.
Now, the question will be, who makes that decision? I dont know. Frankly, i would like to see a few of the guys like Kier, or Tubedog take some of these hacks, and give them the once over. Hell, I would like to help in this as well...Have a couple volunteers try it out on a side VB just to make sure it works, work out some of the bugs by and from volunteers and than post it here. The hacks would not, be supported by VB, or Jellsoft, but by "concerned members"
(if a person needs that for reference).
Later, if there still is more than enough posts to justify that the hack is troublesome for users (all levels) than scrap it.

All a person needs to do, is look around the hack area, and see the novels of "help" and than the total disregard from the author.
I think thats a pretty shi**y attitude to have, but hell, some people have it coming because they dont know correct?

Either way, this subject has veered way the hell off of the origional idea, and I even regret bringing it up.

[s.molinari]

As the discussion continues, I think alot of points being made could be genuine rules to be added to posting a hack.

Stuff like:

1. The hack must be supported by its creator. That means when there are questions about the hack, the creator should do his best to answer them.

2. There should be a "manual" to describe hack installation, the implementation, and the added features it gives to vB.

and so on...


Scott

[fastforward]

Originally posted by ToraTora!

And that is the same reason i have not downloaded a hack with your name on it.
Not because your gods gift to php coding, but because that attitude of slap it up there and than say "screw em if they dont know" just shows in the long run why this idea needs to be a bigger part of this board.
:rolleyes: And your attitude of 'give me a hack and make sure it's commercial quality and fully supported' is the very reason I prefer people like you NOT to download it.

Remember that the people producing hacks do not get paid for it. Nor do they get paid for subsequent support. The hacks are initially created for use on their own boards. If there is an interest, the author may make it available to others. That is as far as it goes. No support, no guarantees etc.

If you want a fully supported hack with copious documentation and personal installation help, try contacting the authors and offer to pay them!

[s.molinari]

9 out of 10 times a person who creates a hack will have pride of authorship. He will be interested that his hack will be used by others and will want to know if there are any probs/ bugs. And he will want to help those who want to use it. Plus vB.com is a community. Being communal means helping those in need of help in the community.

That bring me to my 2 rules: 1. Support the hack, as I said, as best you can. This has a 2 fold advantage. The user gets helped and the creator may find that his work of art is not so perfect. Which means he needs to correct it. (As was said, the hack was originally written for his/her site.)

2. Write a "manual". It needn't be "commercial quality" but should cover some basics points which I mentioned above. It's really not all that much work. And more people would be likely to use the hack increasing the chances of improving it, which is basically, from my point of view, one of the main reasons for posting a hack.

Scott

[ToraTora!]

Originally posted by fastforward

:rolleyes: And your attitude of 'give me a hack and make sure it's commercial quality and fully supported' is the very reason I prefer people like you NOT to download it.

Remember that the people producing hacks do not get paid for it. Nor do they get paid for subsequent support. The hacks are initially created for use on their own boards. If there is an interest, the author may make it available to others. That is as far as it goes. No support, no guarantees etc.

If you want a fully supported hack with copious documentation and personal installation help, try contacting the authors and offer to pay them!


Hey, here is the point buddy, nobody is asking for a hack, that provides 24 hour service, nor are they asking for a complete hack in a box installed like windows. Even "commercial quality" is not what this is all about. If you would take the time to read from page 1, you might understand the whole idea behind this.

Members want a hack that explains the process, possible referecne, etc..and one that doesnt have a ton of grammatical errors of hacks without so much as a line number. IF you consider yourself a great coder or hacker, than this should come as second nature to at least include a line number, or a detailed instruction to your "gift"
I know people dont get paid for creating the hacks, but if you post them, at least post some godamned instructions, that may make sense to people who would like to add it, or keep it off? Why is that so hard to understand? You act like just because you create a hack and post it, that you no longer have to deal with it, and those people like "ME" (by your self absorbed thought process) who should not be downloading it, can basically fuc* off.

FYI, i have downloaded and installed just about every hack here with little or no problems.
I have been burned on three of them that litterally killed our board, but, DO YOU KNOW WHY??? because of simple damned things such as grammer, spelling, correct line numbers, or even in one instance, the correct code to be removed or added.
That is why i now only look for trusted names like tubedogg, kier, etc etc. because they actually include some instructions.
I have also created a few hacks, and a few of them are something that people have asked for here as well.
My point is, if you think that I am some retard, just hoping for a handout, or a gift from such a godsend as yourself, you are sadly mistaken.
The point of it is, and i will say this AGAIN, if you cannnot support your hack, or at least clean it up so people can understand it, or even read it, or even have the common coutesy to provide so much as a damned "on line number" keep it the hell off.
That is not to much to ask. I think its just because your to damned lazy to do it, and than have to blame people for being "stupid" because they cant read your code in the dark.

Thats my thoughts bucky.

:mad:

[fastforward]

Originally posted by ToraTora!

Hey, here is the point buddy, nobody is asking for a hack, that provides 24 hour service, nor are they asking for a complete hack in a box installed like windows. Even "commercial quality" is not what this is all about. If you would take the time to read from page 1, you might understand the whole idea behind this.

I have read the thread from post 1. My paraphrasing was in response in to your distorted interpretation of my original post.

IF you consider yourself a great coder or hacker, than this should come as second nature to at least include a line number, or a detailed instruction to your "gift"

I do not consider myself a great coder and have never once mentioned my coding abilities. It's also painfully obvious that you haven't even looked at the usenet hack instructions (the hack to which I originally referred). If you had, you'd see that the instructions do indeed have line numbers, plus a snippet of the original code that requires replacing. There are also three supporting files of documentation/instructions along with many posts dealing with individual issues. There are also numerous updates to include features that people have requested. Finally there are the countless PMs and emails...

I know people dont get paid for creating the hacks, but if you post them, at least post some godamned instructions, that may make sense to people who would like to add it, or keep it off? Why is that so hard to understand? You act like just because you create a hack and post it, that you no longer have to deal with it, and those people like "ME" (by your self absorbed thought process) who should not be downloading it, can basically fuc* off.

Once again, you are completely distorting the words of my original post. As for 'no longer dealing with my hack once it's posted'! :rolleyes: I won't even bother responding to that one!

FYI, i have downloaded and installed just about every hack here with little or no problems.
I have been burned on three of them that litterally killed our board, but, DO YOU KNOW WHY??? because of simple damned things such as grammer, spelling, correct line numbers, or even in one instance, the correct code to be removed or added.

As you're such a stickler for standards, documentation etc, I'm sure this was only a test board though right?

I have also created a few hacks, and a few of them are something that people have asked for here as well.

Perhaps you could point us to one of your hacks. I'm sure we could all benefit by using your superb 'error free documentation', perfectly commented, structured code and selfless support as an example.

The point of it is, and i will say this AGAIN, if you cannnot support your hack, or at least clean it up so people can understand it, or even read it, or even have the common coutesy to provide so much as a damned "on line number" keep it the hell off.
That is not to much to ask. I think its just because your to damned lazy to do it, and than have to blame people for being "stupid" because they cant read your code in the dark.

And I will say this AGAIN! My hack is one of the most documented and frequently updated hack out there. There are also plenty of people that have installed the hack without problems. It would seem you are somehow turning this thread into some sort of personal attack. The comments in you post are all directly pointed to me. You are making completely false statements regarding the way I documented my hack and also making some strange assumption that I think I'm some sort of gods gift to hacking. In fact, this thread is probably the only reference I've ever made to any hack I've written. It's not even in my signature! And nowhere have I made reference to my coding abilites in this thread except in defense to your personal attack.

Thats my thoughts bucky.

And who exactly is bucky?

[tubedogg]

As much as I like watching you people bicker (I'm JOKING! :D), I don't think this is going anywhere fast. Please get it back on track and keep it civil or the thread will be closed.

[ToraTora!]

Originally posted by fastforward



I do not consider myself a great coder and have never once mentioned my coding abilities. It's also painfully obvious that you haven't even looked at the usenet hack instructions (the hack to which I originally referred). If you had, you'd see that the instructions do indeed have line numbers, plus a snippet of the original code that requires replacing. There are also three supporting files of documentation/instructions along with many posts dealing with individual issues. There are also numerous updates to include features that people have requested. Finally there are the countless PMs and emails...

Are you sure? Because somewhere in there, you said that "people like me shouldnt be downloading your code"
Remember, all I was asking for was a opinon to the idea of having a members area, and than you came in with the high and mighty approach that idiots need not apply to your hacks.


Once again, you are completely distorting the words of my original post. As for 'no longer dealing with my hack once it's posted'! :rolleyes: I won't even bother responding to that one!


No, you are distorting mine. I was asking for opinons to a members only area remember? I than made referals to some of the hacks that are in here, which have been litterally abandoned.
If you took it as a shot to your contributions, than sorry, it wasnt intended that way.


As you're such a stickler for standards, documentation etc, I'm sure this was only a test board though right?

No actually, it was on a production site. Nice try. :rolleyes:

Perhaps you could point us to one of your hacks. I'm sure we could all benefit by using your superb 'error free documentation', perfectly commented, structured code and selfless support as an example.

Im sure that my little hacks wont measure up to your grand coding standards or releases, but when or if this is decided as far as a members area, i will release them. A couple of them are whole templates, which are really quite lenghty, and will not be described in the best unless the whole template is posted. With that being said, I am not going to play "call me out" with you either. The whole point to my argument is to make sure things are done rite the first time. If you cannot handle that premise, than Im sorry for intruding on such a simple request.
Again, when I do release them, the standard that i describe, and ask for, will be shown in thier release though, that i can guarantee.

And I will say this AGAIN! My hack is one of the most documented and frequently updated hack out there. There are also plenty of people that have installed the hack without problems. It would seem you are somehow turning this thread into some sort of personal attack. The comments in you post are all directly pointed to me. You are making completely false statements regarding the way I documented my hack and also making some strange assumption that I think I'm some sort of gods gift to hacking. In fact, this thread is probably the only reference I've ever made to any hack I've written. It's not even in my signature! And nowhere have I made reference to my coding abilites in this thread except in defense to your personal attack.


No, i did not choose this argument. Your attidude displayed was that of a typical response that I really grow tired of reading, and i thought since you made it apparently obvious that the same attitude you displayed was exactly what I was actually trying to desolve by this idea, you fit the bill. Again, if you feel that it was a insult to ask for such simple requests, or that I somehow started this with you, than you should start from page 1 again, and make your way back to this page before you barge in, and give us your grand scheme to what we can or cannot download.
If your hack is one of the most documented hacks online great.
Im happy for you, just dont come into a argument, and state things that do not apply to you than.


And who exactly is bucky?

your sense of well being is overwhelming.

[ToraTora!]

Originally posted by tubedogg
As much as I like watching you people bicker (I'm JOKING! :D), I don't think this is going anywhere fast. Please get it back on track and keep it civil or the thread will be closed.

i have nothing more to add in the bicker category. I just replied to that last post before i seen this. sorry. my last post regarding that topic.

[thewitt]

Now I'm not trying to stir up any more bickering, but I do have a question still regarding hacks in the regular forums and hacks in the private, member area.

Would hacks still be allowed in the general area?

Would hacks be held in a waiting state until they are reviewed by the official hack review squad and approved?

Would hacks without any documentation or support still be allowed? Anywhere?

What about security problems or issues. Would they be prohibited from the general forum area and only be allowed in the private, member area? Would this discourage potential purchasers who would like to see how Jelsoft handles this type of request in their forums?

Again, just trying to flesh out what the rules would be and how they would change from what we have today.

-t

[fastforward]

I'm sorry tubedogg, I have to respond to this. It's only fair that I should be able to defend myself. Maybe the best bet would be to delete all the relevent posts.

thewitt... sorry for burying you post beneath this one.

Originally posted by ToraTora!

Are you sure? Because somewhere in there, you said that "people like me shouldnt be downloading your code"
Remember, all I was asking for was a opinon to the idea of having a members area, and than you came in with the high and mighty approach that idiots need not apply to your hacks.

YES! I'm quite sure. Read my first post in this thread. You will see it directly answered your request to
'Please vote, and also leave a opinon to your thoughts'.
Nowhere in that post was any reference made to YOU nor my coding standard. However, you saw fit to respond with a personal attack and somehow got the idea that I said I was gods gift to php coding, (despite the fact that particular hack is written in Perl). It wouldn't have been so bad, but it was obvious you were just firing off without actually having looked at the hack. Obviously you got upset because I didn't agree with your idea.

No, i did not choose this argument. Your attidude displayed was that of a typical response that I really grow tired of reading,

If my response is typical, maybe there's something to it then...

and i thought since you made it apparently obvious that the same attitude you displayed was exactly what I was actually trying to desolve by this idea, you fit the bill. Again, if you feel that it was a insult to ask for such simple requests, or that I somehow started this with you, than you should start from page 1 again, and make your way back to this page before you barge in, and give us your grand scheme to what we can or cannot download.
If your hack is one of the most documented hacks online great.
Im happy for you, just dont come into a argument, and state things that do not apply to you than.

This is the one that made me angry! Barging in!? Grand scheme!? where are you reading all this stuff? Not in my post that's for sure. If anybody is asking for a 'grand scheme of what can and can't be downloaded' it's you and your idea of a controlled area for 'blessed hacks'. And as for telling me not to come barging in to your thread! :rolleyes: I posted in this thread to give my opinion. An opinion you specifically asked for. The remainder of my posts have been in defense to your unfounded atacks.

[Freddie Bingham]

At this time there are no plans to create a member's only area. There also won't be any 'rules' applied to the hacking forum since it will remain caveat emptor (with the price paid being nothing).

The proper direction for this to head would be for someone to bring up a site that showcases beta hacks, ready for prime time hacks, and full blown Kier style documentation hacks. Jelsoft's attention is on providing support for the out of the package vBulletin. We do not have the time to commit to creating a special area that could handle all of what you are asking for. An outside source needs to step in and do this. While we have vbulletin.org it receives no support for various reasons..One being that the admin is also a developer and is not in the best position to commit the time that it needs to prosper. If you are wanting vbdev.com to be created (yes a ubbdev.com rip-off) than someone with the skills and time needs to set about to create it.

[ToraTora!]

I am pretty much done with this thread. It is a topic that is really getting twisted way out of proportion, and frankly I have had about all I can take concerning it.
It has had close to 700 views, and yet we have a small margin of votes, so obviously its not a issue that many give a rats ass about to begin with, so I say carry on, and enjoy.
I thank the people who responded to this thread, and also shared in this discussion, for there were some good points brought up, but a simple idea is turning into a complicated mess.

[ToraTora!]

Originally posted by fastforward
I'm sorry tubedogg, I have to respond to this. It's only fair that I should be able to defend myself. Maybe the best bet would be to delete all the relevent posts.

thewitt... sorry for burying you post beneath this one.


YES! I'm quite sure. Read my first post in this thread. You will see it directly answered your request to
'Please vote, and also leave a opinon to your thoughts'.
Nowhere in that post was any reference made to YOU nor my coding standard. However, you saw fit to respond with a personal attack and somehow got the idea that I said I was gods gift to php coding, (despite the fact that particular hack is written in Perl). It wouldn't have been so bad, but it was obvious you were just firing off without actually having looked at the hack. Obviously you got upset because I didn't agree with your idea.

If my response is typical, maybe there's something to it then...

This is the one that made me angry! Barging in!? Grand scheme!? where are you reading all this stuff? Not in my post that's for sure. If anybody is asking for a 'grand scheme of what can and can't be downloaded' it's you and your idea of a controlled area for 'blessed hacks'. And as for telling me not to come barging in to your thread! :rolleyes: I posted in this thread to give my opinion. An opinion you specifically asked for. The remainder of my posts have been in defense to your unfounded atacks.



always the innocent are proscuted....its always why me? why me? what did i do? I didnt start this...blah blah..

Go back and read.

[Wayne Luke]

I think it is time to close this thread....