More Options, less template tweaking. A MUST!!

[Kafoul]

:D



I'm still annoyed at some of the functions of Vb that I do not need or that are resource hoggers, please consider my extra control panel Options Change requests, thank you:

Via the control panel Options/Change options, please add the option of removing the ability for users to email each other (I've lost 50% or more of my users to the ezbored company, every month or so some my users, think they can run things better than me, and start their own ezbored boards, and they try to syphon my userbase by e-mailing my users to join their boards). Please offer the option of NOT allowing users to email each other via forms.

Via control panel Options/Change options, please add the ability to remove from the "Members List" the Email and Find Posts columns.

Via control panel Options/Change options, please offer the option of removing All traces of the Private Messages option. The Showing of the message "Your administrator has disabled private messaging", is unacceptable and makes the webmaster(me) look bad.

Via control panel Options/Change options, please offer the option of removing All traces of the Buddy List, Subscribed Forums and Subscribed Threads.

Please Offer the UBB option: "Click Here To View Today's Active Topics (all public forums)" This UBB feature works even when The search function has been disabled by the administrator, this is very desirable since searches kill my shared server

Via control panel Options/Change options, please offer the option of removing the Views and Rating columns from the threads list.

Please Offer the ability of Avatars that are called from different servers a la ezbored (ezbored offers avatars this way, why should I host my Avatars images and go over my bandwidth allowance, when they do it and steal my users because of this option)

Via control panel Options/Change options, please offer the option of removing the search and buddy icon from posts and thread, not just via template editing.

Thanks Vb for listening to your clients.

[Vinnie]

Oh, hell yeah!

These are all excellent suggestions!

FYI, I did it the "hard way" - by modifying my templates:
http://www.bearshare.net

However, this creates a maintenance nightmare.

[ToraTora!]

Not that these are entirely bad ideas mind you, but judging by your thread, and post, and the little comment about "They think they can run a board better than I can" attitude, and the fact you want to basically run phorums, instead of actual forums, I can see why they are leaving in droves.

The attitude you display reminds me of a dictatorship, and Im sure it rubbed off on your users. No Pm's, No Emailing, No this, No that....I mean, people are expecting these types of options because every board has them. You take them away, and your signing your own death warrent. People are not as stupid as you would like them to be, and even if VB "hid" all traces of a PM, and buddy list, they are still going to know, just from visiting other VB forums. (the versions, and the VB trademark are at the bottom...doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out when your getting shafted, just by comparing somebody elses VB to the one a person is already on. That is what these forums are all about. Passing information to keep the communities going strong, and to keep everyone at the same level of competition basically IE.Hacks...Templates...Graphics...)

If you like having none of these options, than try phorums, Yahoo group lists, or a good ol mailing list. You are going backwards instead of going forward, and chopping all of these options out is a real bad business decision, that looks like it caught up with you.

Competition is good, and if people are leaving, than its obvious you did something, or for a better word, did nothing to prevent that from happening.

Good luck.

[JenniferS]

no need to get political about it. i think they are excellent suggestions and I don't know what the heck a "phorum" *is*

J

[tubedogg]

Originally posted by Kafoul
Via the control panel Options/Change options, please add the option of removing the ability for users to email each otherAlready there.

Via control panel Options/Change options, please add the ability to remove from the "Members List" the Email and Find Posts columns.Takes three seconds and you need to edit 2 templates.

Via control panel Options/Change options, please offer the option of removing All traces of the Private Messages option. The Showing of the message "Your administrator has disabled private messaging", is unacceptable and makes the webmaster(me) look bad.I believe you can change that message as you wish.

Please Offer the UBB option: "Click Here To View Today's Active Topics (all public forums)" This UBB feature works even when The search function has been disabled by the administrator, this is very desirable since searches kill my shared serverIf searching is killing your server then this certainly won't help it.

Via control panel Options/Change options, please offer the option of removing the Views and Rating columns from the threads list.Ratings is already there.

Via control panel Options/Change options, please offer the option of removing the search and buddy icon from posts and thread, not just via template editing.If you don't want them, the templates are where they are removed. Adding everything as an option will slow things down immensly and is not going to happen.

Most of these take about 30 seconds to edit a template to remove them as options, although I'm not sure what the point in spending $160 on vBulletin and then removing all the options is.

[ToraTora!]

phorum, is a pretty bare boned php posting set-up.

Also, politically speaking, if a person looses 50% of his members to ezboard, than there is some major problems.
there is no please about it. If you have ever been to a board where you have a admin that thinks he is Christ himself, than maybe you would understand my line of thinking on his "complaint".:rolleyes:

[samtha25]

Originally posted by tubedogg
Takes three seconds and you need to edit 2 templates.
<snip>
If you don't want them, the templates are where they are removed. Adding everything as an option will slow things down immensly and is not going to happen.

Most of these take about 30 seconds to edit a template to remove them as options, although I'm not sure what the point in spending $160 on vBulletin and then removing all the options is.

There are many other reasons for choosing vBulletin than the plethora of options. One is its flexibility to package together the options one wants. Another is that, right now, it's the best database-driven/php board available.

I'd be interested in knowing why adding everything as an option "will slow things down immensely". Cannot the changing of templates be scripted via the admin panel? If I change the templates manually, does that also slow things down immensely? I think that would be important for people to know before they do much customization.

Sometimes, when you work with a program a lot, you lose sight of how much time and effort it can take someone who doesn't to do something that seems very simple and fast to you. Many people using vBulletin, as well as potential customers are running hobby sites. It takes quite a lot of time to even grasp the approach used in customizing vBulletin, especially when your knowledge of advanced html/css and php is rudimentary. Then, assuming you can muddle through to set up the board, you don't necessarily retain all you learned when you have to go back to it, since it can be a long time inbetween.

There's also the fact that many hobby sites are collaborative efforts, with more than one person sharing the work. If the work of customizing, changing the customization, and re-customizing when upgrading is to be shared, it means that several people will have do a lot of learning. Since that is unlikely to happen, the burden will fall on one person. Not particularly attractive option nor reliable.

Being able to do as much customization as possible without editing the templates would make vbulletin a much more appealing product to many people, and as you expand your customer base, you will get a lot more requests to make customizing vbulletin easier. If the developers aren't interested in that market, then I think it's only fair that they make it clear that customizing vbulletin is _not_ easy unless you begin with a certain skills set and that for whatever reasons - technical or philosophical - customers should not expect it to get any easier.

[tubedogg]

My opinion is going to be very unpopular and keep in mind that I'm speaking as me, not as a rep of Jelsoft or anyone else in this case.

If one doesn't know enough HTML to remove a column from a table I'm not sure that one should be messing with something like this. Yes it requires a certain degree of knowledge - you need to know how to use FTP, how to run a web browser, and you should be have at least an intermediate grasp of HTML if you want to be customizing things.

More options means the system has to do more every time a page is put together. Instead of just processing the buddy list, for example, first it has to check if the buddy list is turned on. Instead of just presenting the memberlist, it has to check whether each of the four (?) columns is turned on. That's why the templates are so extensive - if you want to remove a column from the memberlist, remove the two <td>'s from the two templates that make up the memberlist. Wallah - the system's workload isn't increased and the columns are gone. At some point you have to make a choice between adding an option and letting someone remove two lines from two templates. Is it really worth it?

Cannot the changing of templates be scripted via the admin panel?Yes but this not only slows down editing the options, it slows down the system in general.
If I change the templates manually, does that also slow things down immensely?No, because it isn't using the database to determine whether to show a column (or option or whathaveyou) or not before rendering a page. The less PHP that has to be executed the better.

Being able to do as much customization as possible without editing the templatesThat's the whole point of the templates - to allow you to customize whatever you want.

As stated somewhere in the manual, the templates that come with vB are provided as-is for demonstration purposes and you are encouraged to edit and make them your own. It requires no knowledge of PHP and a beginning-to-intermidiate knowledge of HTML.

I, and I think some others here agree with me, think that webmasters should have more than a "passing glance" knowledge of HTML. Just as you don't expect to be able to use Photoshop straight out of the box without either taking some time using it or reading a book about it, expecting to be able to completely change how vBulletin looks without knowing HTML is somewhat ridiculous.

[samtha25]

Originally posted by tubedogg
[My opinion is going to be very unpopular and keep in mind that I'm speaking as me, not as a rep of Jelsoft or anyone else in this case.

If one doesn't know enough HTML to remove a column from a table I'm not sure that one should be messing with something like this. Yes it requires a certain degree of knowledge - you need to know how to use FTP, how to run a web browser, and you should be have at least an intermediate grasp of HTML if you want to be customizing things.

Ah, but it's not as simple as removing a column from a table. One must first understand the complex organization of templates, styles, replacement variables. As I said, people who are intimately familiar with a program often forget how much they know.

More options means the system has to do more every time a page is put together. ... Is it really worth it?

I see what you mean here, but what I was suggesting was an intermediary script that would make changes from simpler input from the user.

Yes but this not only slows down editing the options, it slows down the system in general.

If customizing the templates does not slow down the system, in general, I don't see why an automation of customizing them would. That script would not be running normally.

No, because it isn't using the database to determine whether to show a column (or option or whathaveyou) or not before rendering a page. The less PHP that has to be executed the better.

I, and I think some others here agree with me, think that webmasters should have more than a "passing glance" knowledge of HTML. Just as you don't expect to be able to use Photoshop straight out of the box without either taking some time using it or reading a book about it, expecting to be able to completely change how vBulletin looks without knowing HTML is somewhat ridiculous.

It's not a question of knowing HTML. It's a question of understanding vBulletin. There are also degrees here. Yes, it probably would be ridiculous to expect to "completely change" how vBulletin looks without immersing oneself in vBulletin's backend, but there are also probably common changes that people would like to make that might be accommodated from options in the admin panel. Another possibility would be to provide sets of templates with different looks.

You have "webmasters" whose primary focus is developing and maintaining the backend of a site. Then, you have "webmasters" whose primary focus is providing content to a site. I imagine either type, though, would appreciate saving as much time as possible.

More speculatively, the notion that people need to understand and know the increasingly complex HTML to have Web sites is rapidly fading, no doubt to the chagrin of those who have spent much time mastering the skills. Regardless, the idea of having to enter HTML code to customize appearance will soon appear as quaint as having to enter dot commands in a word processor. vBulletin can reserve for itself status as "webmasters" tool or it can hop on the train leading to the masses. Which do you think will be the more profitable avenue?

[ToraTora!]

Originally posted by samtha25


Being able to do as much customization as possible without editing the templates would make vbulletin a much more appealing product to many people, and as you expand your customer base, you will get a lot more requests to make customizing vbulletin easier. If the developers aren't interested in that market, then I think it's only fair that they make it clear that customizing vbulletin is _not_ easy unless you begin with a certain skills set and that for whatever reasons - technical or philosophical - customers should not expect it to get any easier.

Just some links for future reference on requests.

http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=20

http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17767

http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=34

thats not to mention all of the other versions of VB, or the other site that Ed maintains. http://www.vbulletin.org

You are acting as if these guys do npt listen to any suggestions by that last comment. I can personally say without a doubt, i havent had one question, or suggestion go unnoticed here from the staff or admin of Vbulletin.
The product has evolved a great deal, and it is suggestions that they have listened to, and felt it best for the customer on all angles to implement, to improve and grow this product to what it is already. You cannot find a better service, or board in my opinion, and when people who come to this forum, wanting blood from VB, it sort of angers me a little bit.
Especially when some of the problems listed, while taking shots at VB by over zealous individuals with nothing more contributed here but insults, can be solved in a matter of seconds on their own.

The question that i see this pertaining to is, "can a normal user get it any easier, so that basically all you have to do is hit "on" and its already done for you, without having to do any work?"


None of us were pros or even knew what this setup was to begin with either, but we read and learned as we went along, and it opened a new avenue for knowledge to all that wanted to learn.
PHP is now another thing that I am actively reading, learning, and by trial and error, using on a daily basis.
Look around these forums. There is way to much information stored here to pretend to be ignorant.

I think the guys here are doing all of us a valuable service really. There are not a whole lot of schools teaching PhP, or any service offering their help around the clock. I can say Ive learned a HUGE amount just from being around the envrionment, and taking the time to know what it is that we are running on our server to begin with, from all angles, and all degrees of coding.

I think its safe to say, that some people are never satisfied, and rather than help themselves, they would rather have somebody do the work for them.

[Pilot]

"Show todays topics" should be made available even if searches are not - and should be made a very low overhead feature.

This is essential and urgent. Something like the UBB hack "active topics" would do, maybe there are VB hacks (where?).

However all options/features should state a performance impact rating (eg LOW, MED, HIGH) so people can choose the right ones in the CP.

Or, and PLEASE make the FIND USERS screen better - it's crazy having all those display options and the GO button right at the button. At least have another button at the top of the screen. I have to scroll down loads after typing in the user name (which is all I ever want to key in).

[ToraTora!]

Originally posted by Pilot
"Show todays topics" should be made available even if searches are not - and should be made a very low overhead feature.

This is essential and urgent. Something like the UBB hack "active topics" would do, maybe there are VB hacks (where?).

However all options/features should state a performance impact rating (eg LOW, MED, HIGH) so people can choose the right ones in the CP.

Or, and PLEASE make the FIND USERS screen better - it's crazy having all those display options and the GO button right at the button. At least have another button at the top of the screen. I have to scroll down loads after typing in the user name (which is all I ever want to key in).

Show todays topics, is already in the 2.0-up releases. Its called, "Show New Topics" It shows all of the new threads, and posts of the day, which is "Active" as well..Pretty neat deal actually.

I like the performance idea, however that would vary on your servers performance. There is no clear cut way to determine what and if will drag your server down. Thats best left up to you as the user and Admin of your board.

You can move anything anywhere on VB, and that includes the "go button rite at the bottom". If you try "serach for user name" or "partial name" that will also speed up the process.

Also, this isnt the suggestions thread. ;)

[samtha25]

No, Tora, I'm not acting like anything. It's not personal nor a reflection of any attitude toward the script or the developers. Simply a discussion of company philosophy. It also has nothing to do with how much information is available, but with learning curves and the impact of learning curves on sales, customer satisfaction, and support costs. Classical ISV considerations.

[Mike Sullivan]

You can move anything anywhere on VB, and that includes the "go button rite at the bottom". If you try "serach for user name" or "partial name" that will also speed up the process.
Actually, he means in the user search in the CP. But if you're in a text field, don't forget that you can just press enter to submit the form (in most browsers).

Although I was thinking about a template editor system, but it's quite extensive and would probably be more a 3.0 thing (if anything whatsoever).

[ToraTora!]

Originally posted by Ed Sullivan
Actually, he means in the user search in the CP. But if you're in a text field, don't forget that you can just press enter to submit the form (in most browsers).

Although I was thinking about a template editor system, but it's quite extensive and would probably be more a 3.0 thing (if anything whatsoever).

I see. Well, that explains alot really. However, i use the enter button after i fill in the first text field, and really never scrolled down that far to see it in the admin CP.
I thought he meant the actual search utility for members by users.
My mistake. :)

[ToraTora!]

Originally posted by samtha25
No, Tora, I'm not acting like anything. It's not personal nor a reflection of any attitude toward the script or the developers. Simply a discussion of company philosophy. It also has nothing to do with how much information is available, but with learning curves and the impact of learning curves on sales, customer satisfaction, and support costs. Classical ISV considerations.


Passive agressiveness through forms of complicated and "cushy" terminology never fooled me really.

By saying that it is simply a discussion of company philosophy, is to say that the company has some issues that do not cater to a certain demographic.

I also believe it has alot to do with how much is available, due in part I did not know of php, or other assorted templates within our boards until i started reading, learning, and above all...listening.

Those who script in vb, php, or for that matter cgi, or java, have a definite upper hand on us, that I will admit.
However, the theory still holds true, if you wish to learn, you can.

As far as support costs, or for that matter, the cost in general to this product, I would encourage you to look around at some of the forum software that is for sale. Even some that are for free.
The theory of "You get what you pay for..." does not completely hold true in these categories. Some of the most expensive software on the net, is also some of the worst on the net. Some free boards offer some good features, however if security is a major issue, than its pretty easy to rule some of those out as well.
You will see many past users of the competitions software, here at Vbulletin, giving their highest regards to the staff whether it be importing thier boards to vb, or helping them come to the conclusion of using VB. Some members report a vast increase in forum participation when switching from their former forum software, to VB.
Vbulletin, is still one of the cheaper forum software packages you can buy, and the support here is phenominal.

I believe customer satisfaction is opinon based upon several things. One of course is whether or not you are knowledgeable of the software you have bought. If a person refuses to learn, or refuses to allow themselves to ask questions, VB will be a frusterating experience, as would ANY form of software, or for that matter, product. (IE. VCR's, Satellite Dishes..etc..)
Two can be simply described as basic forethought towards the work that goes into this package. When one understands the work and dedication that goes into creating a product such as this, than one will not be so quick to snap off complaints, or meaningless insults from ignorance and biased opinons.
Three, is the patience and understanding of the people that develop the software. They are human, not robots. We as a customer feel that since we bought the product, we now can play "boss" with the people that we "employ"
I can remember when one particular option was added to the admin panel. The color bars you see in there was a last minute, late night addition, and after all was said and done, people wanted more added to the color section. Drop down menus, color pallets that inserted colors when you click on them...etc...
The point im trying to make is, the guy who added them stayed up quite late just to add that option, and even though there was a few thanks involved, i couldnt help but think of the insults "suggestions" that followed immediately after it was added. Keep in mind, that it was a "gift" from this developer on his spare time who contributed the utility, and instead of being grateful that it was even there, people complained they wanted more.
Four can be a number of factors, however, I will choose to say that most people who participate in the commnunity aslo have a interest in the future of the company. From that interest, the developers can draw future drafts, and future implementations to better the product through means of the communication of the members it provides services for.
Without member voices or concerns, this product would not be what it is currently. They give the customer what they ask for, and as a member, or customer, one has to refer to rules 2 & 3 above.

I am a hands on kind of person, and to me, its a challenge to my thought process, or knowledge to make the code do what I want it to do. Its never a "finished" product in my mind, and as you can see by the amount of hacks and suggestions within these forums, other people feel the same way.

The bottom line is, many of the things that people ask for, are already done here in one form or another.
Also, on the same token, some of the things asked compromise the integrety of security, as well as issues with bandwidth and servers.
It should be understood, that the people who develop this software, also know what will benefit a user from a performance standpoint, (and judging by previous releases) utilities for the user/member, and what they add or use will not compromise the integrety of the software, or the security of your server.
And that, is piece of mind, which is worth more than any push button quick fix set up that I can think of.

[Pilot]

Originally posted by ToraTora!


Show todays topics, is already in the 2.0-up releases. Its called, "Show New Topics" It shows all of the new threads, and posts of the day, which is "Active" as well..Pretty neat deal actually.


If you mean "new posts" - that requires the user to have search engine enabled (which mine don't) - if you mean something else - how do I enable it?

[Pilot]

Originally posted by Ed Sullivan
Actually, he means in the user search in the CP. But if you're in a text field, don't forget that you can just press enter to submit the form (in most browsers).


Not in Netscape 4.7 you can't. At least not in the VB control panel frame.

BTW - who decided that black text on dark purple backgrounds was a good idea in the CP ??!!

[JamesUS]

Not in Netscape 4.7 you can't. At least not in the VB control panel frame.

Works fine in IE, and I believe NS 6. There's nothing we can do to change that.


BTW - who decided that black text on dark purple backgrounds was a good idea in the CP ??!!

You can change that in the cp.css file.

[Pilot]

How come all the VB text files don't have proper PC line-breaks in them, have you tried editing the PHP or CSS files in Notepad?

(They come out as one long line instead being properly formatted.)

I suppose you guys use some sort of programmers editor that does not mind UNIX line termination characters?

[tubedogg]

I don't have any black text on dark purple...which part are you talking about?

Pilot: All of the vB files open fine for me in Notepad. What zip program are you using?

[Pilot]

CP
Users: Find

Find users where: (If you leave a field blank it will be ignored)

The bold part above is unreadable on Netscape 4.7 as it appears like black text on dark purple.

The menu bar on the left of the CP is light purple text (or is grey) on dark purple and very small - hard to read.

Boy you guys love grey on grey...

I use winzip 7. I can fix the "text" files by uploading the to the webserver as BIN and back down as ASCII.

[ToraTora!]

Originally posted by Pilot
CP
Users: Find

Find users where: (If you leave a field blank it will be ignored)

The bold part above is unreadable on Netscape 4.7 as it appears like black text on dark purple.

The menu bar on the left of the CP is light purple text (or is grey) on dark purple and very small - hard to read.

Boy you guys love grey on grey...

I use winzip 7. I can fix the "text" files by uploading the to the webserver as BIN and back down as ASCII.

I dont want to sound like a ass here, but there are settings for font sizes, and colors in your browser if the font is to hard to read.
The netscape way of looking at colors is completely fuc*ed anyways. I used Netscape for a brief fleeting moment on our Admin panel, and that was enough for me.
Download IE man..quit pissing around with junk.

[Wayne Luke]

Originally posted by Pilot
How come all the VB text files don't have proper PC line-breaks in them, have you tried editing the PHP or CSS files in Notepad?

(They come out as one long line instead being properly formatted.)

I suppose you guys use some sort of programmers editor that does not mind UNIX line termination characters?

Well the CVS is located on a UNIX system and the development is primarily tested on a UNIX system so the files should be in UNIX format.

Anyway you can replace Notepad with a full featured text editor like Textpad at www.textpad.com. It will be the best $27.00 you ever spend as a programmer.

[Pilot]

If Vbulletin is to succeed (or be even more successful) - please bear in mind new customers may not be that technical.

I work in IT so I can generally work around things like editing text files in UNIX format. But many people can't and should not have to.

Similarly about 15% of Internet users use Netscape (without which there would be no browser standards at all).

The product needs changing not the habits of users - remember the customer is always right.

I left UBB because of their attitude that the vendors views were more important than the customers - PLEASE don't let that happen here.

[ToraTora!]

Originally posted by Pilot
If Vbulletin is to succeed (or be even more successful) - please bear in mind new customers may not be that technical.

Than the customers should hire on people that are, and work with them closely to acheive the final desired effect. Vb offers thier service in these forums, a form of contact, and services to install VB. They also provide a great service here in the forums.
If you have a basic HTML experience, you can swim through some of the features in VB without drowning. What most new cutomers want, is to implement things (that at this time) are not added to the release or a supported format of VB, and thus, these hacks have spoiled some. The basic software that you get from VB, is as easy as it gets. The templates can be tricky to the new user, however, the forums here have plenty of "how do's, where to's, whats this..with members that are willing to help as well.



I work in IT so I can generally work around things like editing text files in UNIX format. But many people can't and should not have to.

Im missing something here i guess. What exactly would a new user be doing, who has no experience with UNIX, be digging around in UNIX formatted files anyways? Most of the things a user needs to change are in the style section, (which is pretty basic stuff and self expanatory), and the templates. The templates can be tricky as I perviously stated, but with the amount of help in these forums, the new user will feel like a pro in no time just by adding some of the hints added in these forums. If they are trying to mod their online PHP files, than obviously they better know what they are doing, or leave them alone. There is no need to mod the PHP files online, unless they are trying to add a hack, and that is NOT supported by Vbulletin.
I think people are forgetting the fact that hacks of VBulletin are not supported BY VBulletin (jellsoft).


Similarly about 15% of Internet users use Netscape (without which there would be no browser standards at all).

That standard was set quite a few years ago, and has been surpassed many times over. Many of todays online technologies will not even flinch about leaving a few browsers out of the mix, and as such, web developments such as DHTML, and others will also leave those browsers that do not recgonize them in the past as well.
Meaning in short, the standards are changing, and the consumer likes what they see. If a company refuses to get with the times, than why should the people that are in the industry of creating the technology, cater to a dying browser?
Pick up Netscape 6, and you will understand my thoughts on this more fully.
In a perfect world, IE and Netscape could use the same technologies, and produce the same results, however, Netscape wont let that ego of thiers down, to admit that IE did a better job of something they started.



The product needs changing not the habits of users - remember the customer is always right.

I am a user of VB, and not anthing else. I also am a customer as well, and it was my choice to buy VB. Not thiers forced upon me. The choices i have made in the development of that choice, have also enrichened myself in a new language that I am activley pursuing.
Also, the customer is not always rite. That is a copout statement created by people who are to stubborn to admit to their faults as a society, and as a consumer.
What you are saying in a real odd way of putting things,
Is if the customer buys a lawnmower, and than cuts their hand off, it off course is the fault of the manufacturer, and not of the fault of the owner, who was sticking his hand into the blades, while talking on his cell phone and eating a ham sandwhich at the same time.


I left UBB because of their attitude that the vendors views were more important than the customers - PLEASE don't let that happen here.

They are NOT doing that here. This product is a huge evolution, with many releases and implementations suggested by the consumer, and added by the development team. How many businesses acutally LISTEN to the consumer to better their product in this form? Many businesses make changes based upon legal ramifications, or engineers that are schooled in that area. This business takes customer inputs, and makes it a product. To say that they do not listen to the customer here, is neglegiant on your part.
VBulletin is a cutomer based product, and as such, recieves input from more than just its custmers, but the customers of the custmers that use VB. Thats a huge base of people that use this product in one form or the other.

Im sure many people would like to just hit a button, and it would all be fixed, however many people have to remember you are buying a product that you have to upload yourself, and does not sit on a web community pre made for you. Even some of those have a degree of difficulty, so my question would be, what exactly would please you the most? Im not understanding the argument of people complaining about a product that they bought, and downloaded by themselves, that clearly states before you buy it, that there is a degree of difficulty, and knowledge needed to use and modify the board.

[Wayne Luke]

Originally posted by Pilot
If Vbulletin is to succeed (or be even more successful) - please bear in mind new customers may not be that technical.

I work in IT so I can generally work around things like editing text files in UNIX format. But many people can't and should not have to.


I will just comment on this... A program like Textpad is suited for both the technical and non-technical. With it standard menu conventions, toolbars and context sensitive help it puts the user in an environment they are used to. With its transparent reading of UNIX files, the end-user doesn't have to worry about whether the file has proper Windows carriage return and line feed combos, it just works.

In the past I have taught basic computer skills to businesspeople in different fields, including a 5 week course on using business applications in Windows 95/98 using a 300 page book that I wrote. During the course of this, I have found that the non-technical people are confused by Notepad and don't even use it. They would use either Wordpad or MS-Word because they were familiar with the environment presented. Something that cannot be said for NotePad.

As far as making vBulletin easier for the non-technical, I am all for it. I have suggested several new features that would make it that way in the future. A lot of features were put into this version to make it easier to customize without touching the PHP files. I even run a technical forum where I try to make it easy for the newcomer and beginner, so I do have your interests at heart.

p.s. I believe if your server is setup properly and you are running PHP as an Apache module, you can use Binary mode to upload your files and they will work fine in Notepad. I can't test that theory though because I don't have NotePad installed on my machine.

[Vinnie]

Originally posted by ToraTora!
...No Pm's, No Emailing, No this, No that....I mean, people are expecting these types of options because every board has them. You take them away, and your signing your own death warrent.

I disagree. I have turned off as many of these options as possible, and there were very good reasons we decided to do so:

1) BearShare.Net was designed to function as a community resource to help new users and junior users. Since the majority of people who come to the board are looking for help, the last thing they need is to get confused with a lot of board options.

2) There are many ways to communicate or chat with people using instant messaging or chatting software/websites. Having private conversations defeats the members-helping-members atmosphere we have created. Taking a conversation private hides it from other people who might benefit from the knowledge.

3) The feedback has been overwhelming. Most users are very happy with the board setup.

FYI, on BearShare.Net, only posts in the Help Conferences and BearShare Conferences count towards the "user title". A diligent set of moderators automatically move off-topic posts out of these areas and into the other areas.

A batch job processes user titles once per night.

This system has proved to be extremely fair, and encourages helping. One thread in particular got over FIFTY THOUSAND VIEWS:
http://bearshare.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=502

Finally, there are a set of Public Conferences ("Rant", "Brawl", etc...) that allow users to post anonymously in a no-holds-barred environment. This allows the flames and derogatory comments to get partitioned away from the new user help forums and into a separate area, while still allowing for childish fun.

[ToraTora!]

People want to feel like a part of the forums, and obviously by what i just read, you have no problems in dealing with people on a human level, and they realize that. Taking out a good portion of those options proves also that they like the atmoshpere they are at, and the personal level you provide.

There is a world of difference in acting human, and explaining to people why those things were removed, than compaired to acting like a child who is taking all of the toys away from the other kids, because someone else is playing with them in a different sandbox.

cheers to ya. You sound like a pretty level headed individual, and that probably also reflects in your site, and its patrons. :)

[Vinnie]

Well having gotten that off my chest, I should point out that I DO plan to bring back private messenging, ICQ, AOL, MSN, and all of the other "trinkets" once I have a change to massage the interface to make it a little less overwhelming :)

[samtha25]

Originally posted by wluke
p.s. I believe if your server is setup properly and you are running PHP as an Apache module, you can use Binary mode to upload your files and they will work fine in Notepad. I can't test that theory though because I don't have NotePad installed on my machine.

Mine did. I did this by mistake, but everything worked fine.

[Pilot]

I am not asking for VB to be made idiot proof and I personally installed it without help.

But when the very first instruction is to edit "config.php" - you find this:

1 - The file is called config.php.new instead

2 - You can't edit it in Notepad (the standard editor in Windows) easily.

Now - bear in mind the excited new customer has just paid his money and downloaded the zip file and is facing a steep learning curve. You don't want to start off the wrong way with a file that cannot be edited with the perfectly adequate Notepad editor that everyone has installed.

This is simply a matter of quality control and does mean changing the VB product - just taking more care that the first time user does not face a totally unnecessary problem to edit the config file. It gives a bad first impression.

[dabean]

I hate to drag this up but you do all relise that wordpad supports UNIX character returns...

[tubedogg]

The file is called config.php.new so that if you are upgrading you don't accidentally overwrite your config file when uploading.