Ack! Need help now!

[Kathy]

Okay, so I'm going along with my website stats...

coming in at just under 15 GB of bandwidth last month

using around 50 MG of storage for database and website combined

Watching the stats on the website....knowing that soon a ded server is in my future.

Today...an email from my webhost.

I have three options:
to pay him 300.00 per month for my resource usage
to move to ded server
to leave his server completely.

He claims that my website is getting 80,000 hits per day...almost all in mysql/php. He claims this is horrendous and I must be out.

He has given me until monday to tell him what I will do and until Friday to move out.

Help!

If I could afford 300.00 per month, I would move out of there and get a ded server....

What do I do? I have no clue. I've spent the last 2 hours sitting here in shock and have no fast solution.

Do you?

The kicker is that my website isn't a money making site. It is a support site for surgical recovery...with ad banners, yep, but we aren't rolling in dough. (In fact my high paying ad banners are now 60 days+ in arrears)

ANy ideas for this gal?

PS, this guy hosts other VBs so he isn't new to this. In fact he had me convert to VB from my UBB to conserve on resources when we housed with him just 7 (?) weeks ago. He is dids.com.


[Edited by Kathy on 07-07-2000 at 05:25 PM]

[werehere]

I have never used this plan, but I have heard that it is good. It is Vservers, so the hosting I am sure is quality, they also do not put too many people on a server.

I know it is not a dedicated server by any standards, but it may hold up for you for quite a while, so you may wish to just check it out, because I know some people who have the pro plan and say they never get a reaper used on them, and I believe vservers is first class hosting.

http://www.vservers.com/hosting/power/vserver-pro.html

[Kathy]

Thank you so much werehere!

I just checked out their site and called them on the phone. It looks like a great solution for me, one that I can utilize (providing me with sys admin too) and I can take my other 4 domains with me....

In the meantime, my dids.com guy is helping me stay put through august for 150.00 per month to let me situate in another home by the end of august (or stay with him if I want....)

Anyway, thanks for this url...its a good one. Looks like I need the Ultra plan though...because of the number of hits my site and message board takes per day....

Thank you!

[werehere]

Glad it helped. :)

We just had a new dedicated deal worked out with them, and it is a powerful dual processor server, but they worked well with me, very professional, and did a good job making me happy so far (even though my site is not fully moved onto their servers yet).:)

[Chad Simper]

Hey everyone!

I just wanted to make a quick post here... Kathy's first post makes us sound like mean, heartless people and we aren't. Anyone that knows a bit about servers and specifically mySQL with servers knows that 50,000 hits per day to the mySQL database is a real kicker. You must also consider the fact that we have other sites on that server, all of which are mySQL intensive.

We offered Kathy the option to upgrade to a fair plan... In all reality, we offer hosting on our high-end machines (a machine like Kathy was placed on) for no less than $150/mo. However, we allowed Kathy to have this benefit for $40/mo. because we knew her money situation was tight. The only stats at that time that we had to go on were her bandwidth requirements which were 10-15 GB... Given this, we felt that our high-end server could easily handle her site, no knowing that her forums had 50,000 hits per day.

When she says that we "claim" she is getting 80,000 hits, we don't claim a thing. We are looking directly at the stats that she also has access to, day in and day out.

We at no time said she had to "be out" but we did say that she needed to be paying a fair price for her usage or she needed to look into a dedicated server with us or another company. There was no "get out now" and we definitly didn't shut her site down, like many providors would do with a site like hers. We did however have to make sure that she understood her options and knew that she had to make some decisions soon so that the performance of our server was not sacrificed for a long period of time.

I hope everyone understands that at no time did we kick Kathy out and we offered her several options for staying in (but they did require her to pay for what she needed). We are still trying to work with her to make her transfer to a new host (as that was her option) an easy one.

[Kathy]

Hey Chad!

So the moral of the story is:

If you make an agreement with a webhost for a certain package: 15 GB bandwidth per month and 150 mg of storage per month...for 40.00....this ain't necessarily so....

Ask the right questions....(...all I knew was bandwidth I was using and storage I was taking up. For the past 7 weeks, my daily hits never came into question at all even though I checked regularly through ICQ on my stats with Chad...after all, I am a responsible webhost customer.....)

So, if your VB is busy (and even after you've gotten all your gifs shrinked (is that a word? :D ) and your bandwidth is within the limits of your plan, it doesn't mean your webhost will let you stay.

Sign me, "In the Know Now".......and learning more.

[Chad Simper]

The moral of the story is to make sure you and your host understand your site *completely* and make sure you both understand what you are getting into. If there are no communication problems, there won't be worse problems in the future.

The daily stats that were checked was the bandwidth and storage space, which are easily given and which in no way tell what your actual server resource usage is.

At no time did we deceive you nor did you deceive us, based on the information provided by both parties. We have been up-front with you and you have been up-front with us.

The point is that your site does not belong on a $40/mo. package. You were using far more resources than that pays for, in all aspects. With the information you provided, we *thought* we could handle your site, no questions asked... This wasn't the case, unfortunatly.

[David Copeland]

[b]Kathy . . .

What in the world has caused so many hits
to your web site?

I was told earlier in the year that if you
list your forum in any of the major search
engines, your site can get hit with enormous
spam addressed to "webmaster@yourforum", etc.

It was STRONGLY suggested that we setup a
public free home page that already has quality
buffers for "webmaster" spam, such as Yahoo, etc,
and then point the "advertised domain" to that
free site.

Once there, the surfer must read the dummy
home page and click on the link to be connected
to your dids.com forum. Spammers can't do that!

In order to advertise a forum on the search
engines, register for a domain that is similar
to the one you have.

As an example, if the forum is hystersisters.com ,
then register for hyster-sisters.com and have it
pointed at the free home page for a manual redirect
by your real potential members.

Another thing I noticed at your site is that it
is BLOCKED unless the person MUST register. I
know why you do this . . . BUT, perhaps folks are
reloading and coming back in to the site several
times to try to get in, thinking maybe it's an error.
That alone could triple your hits.

There are other Vbulletin methods to keep strangers
from posting, but allowing them to read.

-----

And Chad, how do you convert the kbytes that are
shown on the daily account to "gigs"? Perhaps I
too should look more closely to bandwidth being used.

-----

And last, I have found that a site using 100 Gigs
of bandwidth can usually pay about $500 on a dedicated
server, or about $2 per gig in a shared . . . based
on a UBB board!

But I was HOPING that the VBulletin would REDUCE the
required bandwidth!

[Kathy]

The hits come from traffic on the website...busy busy place. A hit doesn't mean a unique visitor, but one page could mean 10 hits or so...each file (gif, html, php, jpg, etc) is a hit. So if a page has 5 gifs, you have 6 hits right there with one person accessing that page....one html and 5 gifs....

Even with tiny gifs, the hits are counting. (Saving on bandwidth but somehow counting that hit meter...)

As for the VB that isn't readable unless people are registered, for our forum, we've discovered that when we use this option, it slows down the hits....not increasing them. And yes, makes for better ability to moderate the traffic through the boards along with the 25 moderators that take care of the forums.

We moved to Vservers...on a semidedicated server and its been great. I took all my other domains (currently 5 active) and was able to put them in the same space. Saving those hosting fees has helped while I'm paying for more space....but we are zipping along. VServers are adamant about meeting our needs. When we had an issue with another domain sharing our box using up mysql resources and locking us out for some moments each day, VServers did some fast switching to make sure that we were taken care of....and then credited me those days of service for the inconvienence. I'm very impressed....their goal is to make sure that my server is up, running and available. I get calls on the phone from vservers, checking on quality of service along with frequent email checking on my needs.

As for the difference with UBB and VB, there is a significant difference in resources....both in storage (mega difference in sizes) and the pages are faster to load in VB than they ever were in UBB. We had to prune every 3 days on our UBB because if it got bigger than that, no matter the size of our storage, the pages got slower and slower to access. With the VB, we have seen it zip along....no slow downs for the constant addition of posts to the database.

I'm very pleased....

[David Copeland]

[b]Kathy . . .

This is what Dids.com offers (in part) for hosting a
VBulletin web page:

Level 1
9.95/mo
10MB Storage
1 Gig Bandwidth

Level 2
14.95/mo
25MB Storage
3 Gig Bandwidth

Level 3
19.95/mo
50MB Storage
5 Gig Bandwidth

Level 4
24.95/mo
75MB Storage
7 Gig Bandwidth

Level 5
29.95/mo
100MB Storage
10 Gig Bandwidth

Level 6
39.95/mo
150MB Storage
10 Gig Bandwidth

Level 7
49.95/mo
200MB Storage
10 Gig Bandwidth

Level 8
59.95/mo
250MB Storage
10 Gig Bandwidth

Level 9
69.95/mo
300MB Storage
1 Gig Bandwidth

Level 10
79.95/mo
350MB Storage
10 Gig Bandwidth

Level 11
89.95/mo
400MB Storage
1 Gig Bandwidth

Level 12
99.95/mo
500MB Storage
1 Gig Bandwidth

Level 13
149.95/mo
750MB Storage
15 Gig Bandwidth

Level 14
199.95/mo
875MB Storage
20 Gig Bandwidth

Level 15
299.95/mo
1000MB Storage
30 Gig Bandwidth

Add-On's to any plan:
1 Gig Bandwidth: $9.00/mo
5 MB Storage: $1.00/mo
----------

This is what VServes told us today:

VServer Lite Plan
59.95/mo
100 MB Storage
Unlimited Bandwidth (for clients using 15-20 Gig/mo)

VServer Ultra Plan
250.00/mo
Semi-Dedicated Server
800 MB Storage
Unlimited Bandwidth (for clients using up to 50-100 Gigs?)

-----------

I wonder if linking the pictures to another (free) site
would reduce the bandwidth and hits (as you describe)?

Also, I noticed that some of our pictures are JPG and
BMP files. The JPG files seem to be smaller (and less quality?).

Any thoughts?

PS: By the way, we just passed 10 Gigs for August and we haven't even invited our forum members-at-large, only about 70 beta members! I don't know what is hogging the bandwidth.

[Kathy]

David, are you using UBB? Could that be the bandwidth issue?

As for dids.com, yes that is the published plans, however they have been adjusted a bit....a little more bandwidth I believe for the packages? Not sure....

I do know that I was using the 39.95 plan from dids.com and I didn't take up but 50 mg of storage and was under the 15 gb bandwidth, but because of the number of hits each month, we were asked to make other arrangments. (Nicely put, I might add)

Knowing that my website was only growing, and I had other domains that I was spending money on...I opted for more space. I was TIRED of worrying about bandwidth, hits and such. I don't think my graphics would last for long on a free site considering the 750,000 individual page hits I get each month (with graphics on each page....)

I was just plain old tired of trying to scrimp by, worrying about the bandwidth issue. I moved all my domains (and have since bought a few more and am working on some new websites....) onto the same Ultra server. Yes, I pay 250.00 per month. I'm can also sell space on my server...recooping some of the costs....saving money from the 5 other domains and those webhosts....and I don't have to worry about service, hits, bandwidth....and the control panel is incredible and the extras I get with this server is worth it.

I suppose, if your UBB or VB isn't getting much traffic that you can do nicely on a shared server with lots of other domains....but I found (and dids.com discovered) that too many busy message boards on the same server doesn't work....

BTW, I wouldn't go back to UBB if someone paid me to go back. The speed, the size and the workability of this VB message board is amazing...I love it. There is stopping it....

[David Copeland]

[b]Thanks for your reply . . .

Yes, we are using VBulletin after seeing
horrendous bandwidth costs at other sites
using UBB.

Still, I'm confused about hits driving
up costs, when our bandwidth isn't the issue.
It is something I need to dig into.

And your frustration has brought this issue
to the forefront, because I checked today
and our traffic(?) is at 10 gigs already
for August, with just a beta membership
of under 100. (We have over 12,000 members
worldwide that have yet to be invited to
our new forum.)

For $250 a month, what kind of bandwidth and\
traffic hits do you think you can use without
any problems or more charges?

Thanks.

PS: Can you sub-rent a portion of your
semi-dedicated space out to another friendly
VBulletin board? :)

[eva2000]

excuse me for jumping in this thread, but with 12000 potential members i doubt any server for US$250/month woul do... especially for bandwidth costs... i.e. my vb forum has been online for 7 weeks with 290 members and 14000+ posts and it consumes 850MB/day or nearly 25GB/month

my dedicated server host, rackspace.com recently revamped it's site and linux server plans and you can get a

P3 500
128MB
15GB EIDE HDD
5 IPS
40GB/month for
US$338.80/month
US$250 setup

or for 50GB/month an additional US$30/month
or for 75GB/month an additional US$90/month
or for 100GB/month an additional US$160/month on top of the 228.80/month

i joined rackspace at the end of May with a

p3 500
128MB
10GB
8 IPs
50gb/month for US$405/month no setup...

[Kathy]

Truth be told, I thought I was safe on dids.com.

I signed up with 150 storage and 15 gb limit...and stayed within that limit. But, what I didn't know, and the host didn't explain upfront, was that the "hits" were affecting the server's cpu resources. I don't understand this...because I'm not a server admin. It wasn't in the stats that I understood that I needed to be worried about. I watched my websites bandwidth on a daily basis...we were allowed 15 gb per month and stayed under that....

VServers doesn't count "hits" or bandwidth....I was told I could have atleast 300,000 hits per day or more...(I was at 80,000 at that point). VServers then looked at the script of VB and told me that based on the kind of "hits" I was getting, I would be safe for double that. Seems that some "hits" are harder hits than others? I don't understand it all, except that the hits of VB are short, fast hits, not much cpu usage per hit compared to other kinds of hits??.......not that I understand it but I trudge onward.

What I like about vservers is that they have told me that they will NEVER panic over the size of my site, the number of hits or my bandwidth. They will monitor my stats and let me know if a time ever comes that my needs change....and then they will alter the server I'm on (and the plan if needed)

They will never email me and tell me that I have the weekend to make arrangements....they will adjust on their end what needs to be adjusted while we work on changes based on my overall needs...over a period of time. I don't feel like I'll be put in a position where I need to make a snap decision....They've called me on the phone to discuss usage....they return my phone calls and have helped me set up an extensive server plan.

I'm in good hands. They are polite. Attentive. They know their stuff. On the occasions that I've called for phone tech support I've had the privilege of speaking to many of the tech support....24/7 they answer that phone. They have a large crew. Then when I needed further help, I was given to a "performance" team which monitored my needs and adjusted my server based on the mysql database issues.....

They have been great.

I would suggest you go with vservers lite....and when/if you need more space, they will move you to another server/plan with no pains on your end. They want to make vservers fit whatever needs a webmaster/owner has for his domain....

I'm impressed. Can you tell?

[eva2000]

sorry meant to say on top of US$338.80 not 228.80

[Kathy]

Eeeks Eva! That's a bunch of bandwidth, isn't it?

My Vb is only a few months old:
3750 members

49700+posts

and we use up about 15 gb a month.....maybe 17 gb per month....

taking up about 50 mb of database.....

We get for our server:

800 mg of storage and unlimited traffic (approx 40 gb per month...or more based on the other resources according to my contract)

So, I feel like I'm getting a great deal on my
2X600mhz Pentium 3 server.....

Set up was only 100.00...

Atleast for my needs, it was a great deal.

[eva2000]

yeah bandwidth is a crazy thing especially for dedicated servers, cause unlike virtual hosting, dedicated servers you get charged for not only http bandwidth but ftp,mail, sendmail and everything on your dedicated server :( for Aug 4 i managed to rack up 4.7GB of bandwidth for 1 day :eek:

my server hosts 10 of my sites and my vbulletin hence the bandwidth costs...

do shared servers get charged for non http bandwidth too ?

[Kathy]

I'm not sure....

I'm on the VServers Ultra server. It is a semi-dedicated server. There are a few of us that share one monster machine....

I just know that when I watch my stats, the bandwidth isn't eating my lunch....

I have unlimited number of domains (IP less) that I can host on my IP.....and I've got 4 active sites plus 2 pointers in this space....and we have plenty of room to keep growing.

I'm not sure about your question since I'm neither on a dedicated or a "normal" shared server....

[David Copeland]

[b]Well, at a FLAT rate and unlimited bandwidth,
you should be able to take Vservers word on it and
sleep at night. :)

[Kathy]

I've been sleeping great since I switched to VServers.

:D

[Chad Simper]

David,

You can turn KB into MB by dividing by 1024. You can turn MB into GB by dividing by 1024.


As far as Kathy's situation goes, we are extremely excited that she is happy with her new host. We are a host that suites the needs of a lot of people, but we are by no means perfect, nor are we the perfect host for every person's needs.

The server that Kathy was on has returned to it's normal stable self after Kathy left. It was a win-win situation for everyone involved, and we would much rather see a client that is getting what they need/deserve than see them suffering with us (which doesn't happen often but again, we aren't perfect for everyone).

I want to explain that our original e-mail to Kathy notifying her of her options for taking care of her site was business like and straight to the point, but we were very much willing to work with her and help her in finding a new host. We at no time ever kicked her off (yes, the e-mail did give a final date for moving the site, but we didn't enforce it).

We had to notify Kathy of her site's success because it was causing problems for the rest of the sites on the server. The server isn't made to deal with 80,000 hits per day, most also requiring the mySQL service. Kathy's wasn't the only site on the server, but her site alone was using a lot of the available mySQL resources.

To compound the problem, Kathy was not actually paying the price to be on our high-end machines... She was paying $110/mo. less than is usually required for such. We offered her the package because she was really hurting and needed to move the site and the package offered her plenty of space and bandwidth. What we did not know is that her site was *extremely* popular - this was just a lack of communication between the two parties.

We did our best to compensate for resource usage and work with her, but she ended up leaving us, which we didn't want but which we did understand. Like I said, it was a win-win situation for everyone involved.

We were sorry to see Kathy leave because she was a great client and everyone here had a pleasure working with her and Susan, but we were glad that she found a solution that was designed for sites like hers. It caused all of us a lot less grief.

[Edited by Chad Simper on 08-11-2000 at 10:36 AM]

[Chris Schreiber]

Originally posted by eva2000
... Aug 4 i managed to rack up 4.7GB of bandwidth for 1 day

WOW! That's alot of bandwidth!

do shared servers get charged for non http bandwidth too ?

No they typically don't since bandwidth on shared servers is measured by web server access logs. The reason you get charged for all bandwidth on a dedicated machine is since they measure usage at the switch, not on the server, so anything that goes to/from the server is counted.

-Chris

[David Copeland]

[b](The following may seem "personal",
but I post this in hopes that other newbies
and novices (such as myself) may learn how
to figure their hosting and bandwidth
charges . . . without having to lose sleep).

--------

Chad . . .

Thanks for responding to my question of
converting Kbytes to gigs. Are you sure? :)

It's funny. Yesterday I was panic that we
were already OVER 10 Gigs by Aug 10, with
another 20 days to go. My control panel
showed "103,744" Total Kbytes and "15742" Hits.

When I called a sales rep at VServes for price
quotes, I asked him how to convert 103,000 Kbytes
to gigs . . . and he put me on hold to consult
with Tech Support.

When he returned, he announced that 103,000 Kbytes
was actually 10.3 Gigs! Then panic REALLY
set in.

So, based on what your math says, I have
used LESS than 1 gig for the month of August
so far???

What about the 15,742 hits? Will that be a
separate charge . . . or should I only look at
the amount of Kbytes Used (103,000) to figure my
total allotment?

[Chad Simper]

Hi David,

It really worries me when a company of that magnitude and a company that receives the praise of so many (like Kathy) doesn't know how to convert kilobytes to gigabytes. You have not used anything close to 10.3 GB. You have used about 1/10 of a GB - a far cry from 10 GB.

I don't know if the sales rep screwed up or their tech support screwed up, but someone made a bad calculation mistake. You might call to see if that was a mistake or if the person that come up with that figure just didn't know what s/he was doing. Vservers is a highly regarded company and from what I have read, they know their stuff. So, I would conclude that someone just made a mistake in their calculations (though I don't see what mistake they made).

As far as hits go, we don't actively worry about hits, until they become a problem. The problem comes when all those hits are requiring mySQL or another resource intensive application. When you have 80,000 hits per day, the majority of them being mySQL intensive, it causes severe problems for the server (especially when there are other people also on that server that want to use that resource). It becomes even more of a problem knowing that mySQL has a limited number of connection ports - when you have even 20,000 people per day that need access to those limited ports (usually less than 300 on a shared server), it becomes a problem (again, given the fact that other sites on that server also want access to those connections).

As far as you are concerned, you have a long way to go before you need to be concerned. And when the point comes that you need to look into other solutions (with us or another company), we will let you know and we will work with you to make the change as easy as we can, no matter your decision.

[Edited by Chad Simper on 08-11-2000 at 12:47 PM]

[David Copeland]

Chad . . . you made my weekend! :)

What a relief in knowing you for your
experience and dedication to stating
the accuracy.

I'm extremely happy with our low rate
per month at this time . . . but needed
to understand exactly what you stated.

As far as the number of hits (80,000
a day) . . . what has been your experience
with the "why's" of that many hits?

Is it because the site is getting spammed?

May it also be because it is listed on all
of the search engines?

If it's spam, what extra precautions can be
taken to keep it from hitting the server
so hard?

If it’s search engine related, do you have
suggestions as to what NOT to do when listing
a site on search engines?

------
NOTE: For everyone else, we too received
a "form email" a few weeks back stating that
our credit card could not give an authorization
for the amount of our monthly service fee due.

The email required us to take care of the charge
or our service would be suspended within 5 days.

Sure, folks could read that the email was "cold"
and without compassion. But so are those long
distance bills that don't get paid on time.

In the end we discovered we had cancelled the old
credit card number because of unauthorized charges
and had replaced it. But the replacement was not
updated by us on the host site. Within a few
minutes the account was paid . . . and we received
an email receipt later.

The point is . . . there are real people behind
any business form letter. And the demands of
payment is meant to be "business" and not personal.

In the last 35 years, it is a rare day that I can't
call up a real person and get an extension or have
something worked out. And emails have no feelings.

So we're happy with dids.com and Chad's support. I
will call VServe and let the sales manager know of
the goofy reply I got. Competition is good, and
both companies are needed in this growing forum
industry.

Thanks.

[eva2000]

well i suppose the there's the disadvantages as well as advantages of dedicated servers :(

Originally posted by Chris Schreiber
Originally posted by eva2000
... Aug 4 i managed to rack up 4.7GB of bandwidth for 1 day

WOW! That's alot of bandwidth!

do shared servers get charged for non http bandwidth too ?

No they typically don't since bandwidth on shared servers is measured by web server access logs. The reason you get charged for all bandwidth on a dedicated machine is since they measure usage at the switch, not on the server, so anything that goes to/from the server is counted.

-Chris

[Chad Simper]

Hi David,

As far as the number of hits (80,000
a day) . . . what has been your experience
with the "why's" of that many hits?

This is a good question. That many hits in a single day can be generated by a number of things, but the most prevelant is just a successful (or popular) site. This is often good for the site owner, though they aren't always making enough to pay for the dedicated server that their site probably should be on.

Any number of things really could affect this number, but it is something that most site owners want to see (because 99% of the time, it is legit traffic).

Sites don't really get spammed, they get attacked (often referred to as a DoS attack - by calling a page thousands of times rapidly). We have dealt with this only a couple of times, but yes, it can happen. If this is the case, we don't blame you for it, but we will work with you to try to get the individuals taken care of because they are hurting your site and the server that it is on.

Understand that 80,000 hits per day of nothing but HTML really isn't a big deal. It becomes a big deal when those 80,000 hits are all PERL pages, or when they all need to access a database. Only when resources are really needed (which isn't really the case for simple HTML pages) does it become a problem. Nothing really can be done to protect you from this stuff - if someone has the time and knowledge to do it, they can. Stopping is more or less up to your host (us in your case).

Hopefully, that answered all your questions.

[eva2000]

Originally posted by David Copeland

As far as the number of hits (80,000
a day) . . . what has been your experience
with the "why's" of that many hits?

Is it because the site is getting spammed?

May it also be because it is listed on all
of the search engines?

If it's spam, what extra precautions can be
taken to keep it from hitting the server
so hard?

If it’s search engine related, do you have
suggestions as to what NOT to do when listing
a site on search engines?


i am not sure but i believe the number of hits here would depend on the design of the site...

if you have a web site with each page have like 20 - 40 small or larges images... you will be getting anywhere between 21 - 41 hits per page...

if youhave 1000 visitors/day visiting 5 pages of your site you will have like

21 x 1000 x 5 = 105,000 hits/day ?

if you designed your site to be bandwidth conservative, then if you only had say 5 images to a page then you would have reduced the number of hits by 75% or more ?

the question ? is cause i am not sure if this is fully correct ? :)

a question i have is i know that regards to bandwidth having the same image on each page can reduce bandwidth as a visitor's browser when a same visitor visits several pages can cache the image or object and reduce the bandwidth.... but does a browser's cache save that extra hit or the next page with the same image ?