Liquidweb vs. ThePlanet/SM

[dwh]

In the last few hours I've been researching TP pretty extensively and happen to run across someone suggesting Liquidweb as a cheaper alternative. After reading their offerings it looks like a more attractive alternative to me. Have a lot of people here used them? Are they a true managed service company? It sounds like with them you won't really need a separate admin if you are technical enough but just don't want to invest the time to learn how to secure your server, debug etc...

I can understand why some people would be attracted by TP. It has some great tools against DDOS, some Orbit system that sounds cool and sophisticated, some high quality IDS etc... And if you have the time/knowledge/wherewithal to deal w/ the Network/DNS/Server problems yourself, TP is an excellent solution. But to say it's managed sounds like a stretch. After chatting w/ the salesperson, I can already tell it won't take long for support to put an issue on the hour of free support and I can see the charges piling up. Increasing TCO. Vs. LW which doesn't seem as sophisticated, but they deliver a secure server from the getgo and from what they claim, they won't nickel and dime you on support.

Now the major question I have is if the promise on their site is the level of service they really deliver. Are people happy? Is there anything else I'm missing?

[Zachery]

I've never been nickled and dimed on TP's support, to be honest I can't think of too many times I've been charged overall for anything, unless I wanted some custom application to be installed, and even then it was somthing they offeered and the setup fee was nominial (25 bucks).

One thing I've never liked is a host that needs an overly flashy design. Now.. I know this is more of a personal thing. But who are they trying to kid? A Sugary coating is trying to cover for something else. I honestly have much much more faith in a hosting company that has a less flashy and more professional design.

But thats just me :)

Try searching over at webhostingtalk.com and see if anyone is with liquidweb :)

[dwh]

Sorry, nickel and dimed was probably too harsh a word.

I'm sure that you haven't had to deal much with paying extra, but then you're 20 and are a sysadmin :) Us old folks don't have the energy to figure all this stuff out anymore. We can't keep up with you :) I would probably have a bill as big as the webhosting fee just so they can wipe my tush because I'm too lazy to do it myself :)

I think different companies work well for different needs.

But to be honest, and TP is far from the only one guilty of this, what kind of bothers me is that TP is advertising like it is a true managed server, but clearly it isn't. They should be honest about it and call it what it is. You already use up the first hour just to get a secured server!! Unless you already know a lot about being a sysadmin in which case you don't need managed hosting in the first place... In my book that's kind of bait and switch.

I did check out WHT. Lots of fabulous reviews for LW's service. There was a bad one or two but they were really nitpicking about minor minor stuff. And half the people on WHT probably work for a provider and have their own goals in posting messages. You certainly can't trust it. (They steered me wrong twice).

I saw on WHT that a lot more people were on TP but even more complaints for TP than LW. And again, the complaints were from people who had the wrong expectation about what TP was. They viewed it as a managed service and got POed when TP wouldn't do managed type services for them.

If you understand what to expect, then TP is great. But if you need help, you got to hire an admin on top of the price for a first class network.

Zachery, have you heard particularly bad things about LW that should really turn me away? Because I'm pretty much sold on them but doing some due diligence to see if there's anything I need to watch out for...

I'm not a fan of their graphics either (nor TPs to be honest), but I just ignored that and tried to underrstand the pros and cons of each service.

[smithtr]

Please You need support to how learning right used to private code, can't find lots of difficult because I ask you know how easy structured but I am weak not enough strong control system. I want to control program pretty better than new technology also I like peacefully all of world. I favorite like look better computer. I want to more smart become easy analyze lots of smart then I used fast my hand is fast easy keyboard on computer.

I ask you know what is meaning visual basic or microsoft, I don;t understand what is problem is failed my experience then I interested better cool it teach how right computer is code set up and code system

[ChrisLM2001]

I did check out WHT. Lots of fabulous reviews for LW's service. There was a bad one or two but they were really nitpicking about minor minor stuff. And half the people on WHT probably work for a provider and have their own goals in posting messages. You certainly can't trust it. (They steered me wrong twice).

I'm a customer and don't work for anybody.

Did you check my thread and posts at WHT on LW (before being banned from there over just asking about WHT's staff policy. Been there since 2001 with zero problems, but when a staff member was banned and I asked about their staff policy on such matters, I was banned too)?

That's not a "minor" gripe.

They advertized on WHT of a $30 first month special on their $60/mon VPS package (256mb memory one) and claimed to be semi-managed. I was billed $60 (as well as another who got the same deal), and effectively didn't get semi-managed service. WHT locked their original ad thread in their VPS offers forum where others and I complained, but anyone can read it for themselves.

You have to complain quickly and publicly to get a refund for a bad setup, or the host won't do it. It doesn't look pretty, but it's either that or be ripped off. Sadly, the industry is still learning about customer service.

I never got such poor service from TP or SM. For that matter asmallorange, either.

Chris

[dwh]

I'm a customer and don't work for anybody.

Did you check my thread and posts at WHT on LW

No, but if you give me a url I'll check it out. Did you have the same username there?

(before being banned from there over just asking about WHT's staff policy. Been there since 2001 with zero problems, but when a staff member was banned and I asked about their staff policy on such matters, I was banned too)?

I was banned there once too :)

Which staff member was banned?

That's not a "minor" gripe.

They advertized on WHT of a $30 first month special on their $60/mon VPS package (256mb memory one) and claimed to be semi-managed. I was billed $60 (as well as another who got the same deal), and effectively didn't get semi-managed service.

Meaning they charged you twice what they claimed they would? How did they justify that? Or did they? What do you mean you didn't get semi managed? And did they eventually refund you or did you stick around with them for awhile?

WHT locked their original ad thread in their VPS offers forum where others and I complained, but anyone can read it for themselves.

Meaning they were shutting the offer down since it was not being honored?

You have to complain quickly and publicly to get a refund for a bad setup, or the host won't do it. It doesn't look pretty, but it's either that or be ripped off. Sadly, the industry is still learning about customer service.

Ain't that the truth. Why is the situation so bad? I suppose the price pressure is too harsh to sustain proper tech support. I saw an ad by SM/TP for a techie where they were paying 2-3k a month. What kind of decent tech can you get at that rate?

I never got such poor service from TP or SM. For that matter asmallorange, either.

Chris

Sigh. Is it too much to ask for a decent managed server, but truly managed?

If what you say is true, and I have no reason to think it isn't, then I guess I'll have to give up on LW. From what you say it sounds like TP is the best choice right now, supplemented by a sysadmin. Or have you wound up using any other option?

[ChrisLM2001]

No, but if you give me a url I'll check it out. Did you have the same username there?

http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=382059
http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=377583

Just add the "a" on my username here and that's me at WHT.

I was banned there once too :)

Which staff member was banned?

http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&action=showthread&threadid=387761

If it doesn't show up, WHT pulled it. But it was a WHT staff member who was new (think he signed up in Jan, 2003) that cussed out a long-term member in PM, IIRC, over a political matter and he was canned.

I asked what is the staff rules of conduct on the matter (since member rules are so defined and strict), got the coy run around answers, and was banned for asking. Then when I complained elsewhere that I never received the mod notices to stop (as AOL considers it spam), their Liason came over to that forum with a "I don't know why AOL would consider WHT notices as spam" crap.

That Liason was once my sysadmin, so I hope now you will understand why I highlighted the sysadmin issue. Apparently he knows how to script IRC bots, but doesn't know how to make vBulletin moderator notices get past AOL's spam filters - dang there's a mod at vb.org to do just that. Heck, vBulletin staff may even help them since their such a major business site. Pffff!

I don't have ill will towards WHT, but how they handled the affair was not only nasty (should've seen what was said in the mod emails), but the aftermath of playing dumb and blaming me over their own stupidity, was icing on the cake. I had no reason to configure my mailbox for WHT spam, because I had no intention in getting any.

In this webhosting world taking a rep hit like that (I'm a graphic artist) was wrong on their part, so I state this all to refute their ideas. I'm not a "troublemaker" or troll -- I just was asking about their staff policy on bad staff. Sheesh!

Meaning they charged you twice what they claimed they would? How did they justify that? Or did they? What do you mean you didn't get semi managed? And did they eventually refund you or did you stick around with them for awhile?

Their ad was for $30 for the first month. I was charged full price, $60. And if I didn't complain they probably wouldn't have refunded the $30.

Because I had issues with their "semi-managed" service (like they wouldn't fix the mysql 4.1 character-set issue; VPS httpd was showing errors; eximstats was down with no fixes, etc) had no choice but to demand a full refund immediately.

I don't wait 30 days to find out if they're okay or not. If they can't do the initial setup correctly, it's a signal to move. If a webhost doesn't fix the major issues, you know what their attitude on the small ones would be -- "we'll get to it whenever".

Meaning they were shutting the offer down since it was not being honored?

No, they just bought another $600 WHT ad, and WHT closed the old thread instead.

Don't believe for a moment WHT polices webhosts. They're a business setup to gain advertizing dollars, that's what counts. Not rooting out the trash in the industry.

Ain't that the truth. Why is the situation so bad? I suppose the price pressure is too harsh to sustain proper tech support. I saw an ad by SM/TP for a techie where they were paying 2-3k a month. What kind of decent tech can you get at that rate?

That's for a full time Level 2 or 3 sysadmin tech (Rackspace's total admin package gives you a Level 3). They do much more work than these third-party sysadmins. They fix apps/scripts (got a mod for vB that doesn't work? Give it to them to fix), setup complex hardware for businesses and host of other requests on the spot -- you're buying a dedicated sysadmin seat. He's not shared with 300+ other clients all fighting for his attention. You get email/pager/phone contact info, so you can get a hold of him at 3am ASAP.

Most folks don't need that level of service, but businesses may. The rest of us use at most Level 2 sysadmins who uses install scripts and all to streamline their administrating duties, and wait for resolutions.

Sigh. Is it too much to ask for a decent managed server, but truly managed?

It comes with a pricetag, though. Total managed servers will come in on the cheap side around $400/mon (Rackspace won't even quote their's publicly). It's why everyone else signs up with a third-party sysadmin, instead.

If what you say is true, and I have no reason to think it isn't, then I guess I'll have to give up on LW. From what you say it sounds like TP is the best choice right now, supplemented by a sysadmin. Or have you wound up using any other option?

From reading what you have, yes TP is the best answer for you. Tell them you want your Web and Mysql server linked together, so you won't be charged with extra bandwidth usage (you're only charged for external bandwidth hits, internal ones don't count). They have a cable to link 2 boxes together.

You know they own more than one datacenter, and have fully trained Level 1, 2, 3 techs on the premises. Their hardware to block outside DDoS attacks and other compromises alone is a good reason to sign up with them. Not every webhost out there has the capital to run those mega Cisco routers or can negotiate with the main networks to route traffic in case of a DDoS attack (too common with forums now).

They also use brand name equipment. That Dual Xeon I had was a Dell, with Fujitsu 73gb 10k disks, with a DRAC III console for shell work. Also you have a choice of OS to install (great for developers testing software on various OSes and can't afford getting Windows 2003 Server Standard of their own). At $25 for each reimage, that's a small price to get a new install.

Also their policy is if the server has a hardware issue, you get a new server (same model and config, unless they're out, which they may do a minor upgrade for you for no charge). They don't pull parts and put in new ones, they pull the whole box and give a new server instead. :)

Chris

[Joshs]

I can recommend TP/SM but not LW as I have not had any experience with them. TP's network is one of the best out there. While you can't expect them to run your server for you, they do a great job otherwise. I recommend looking into a third-party managed service. At least get the initial secure on the server. I recommend you take a look at ServerWizards for that.

[dwh]

Don't believe for a moment WHT polices webhosts.

I don't and never did.

Thank you (and everyone else here) for your input. It has been very helpful. I'm leaning towards TP as #1 and Ev1 as choice #2 right now. And more importantly, figuring out that if I don't want constant hassles, to budget for a lot more money in hosting.

[ChrisLM2001]

If you want total system administration, and have the deep pockets to afford tip-top service, it's best to go with Rackspace. They're a speciality webhost for enterprise level businesses/projects who don't want the hassle of inhouse IT staff. Highly recommended for mission critical servers, and web and software developers who like to put their time in their product, not doing backend server work themselves or willing to put up with the potential security problems with third-party sysadmins (some who are known to hold databases and more hostage over anything).

Chris

[Sheps]

If it doesn't show up, WHT pulled it. But it was a WHT staff member who was new (think he signed up in Jan, 2003) that cussed out a long-term member in PM, IIRC, over a political matter and he was canned.

I asked what is the staff rules of conduct on the matter (since member rules are so defined and strict), got the coy run around answers, and was banned for asking. Then when I complained elsewhere that I never received the mod notices to stop (as AOL considers it spam), their Liason came over to that forum with a "I don't know why AOL would consider WHT notices as spam" crap.

That Liason was once my sysadmin, so I hope now you will understand why I highlighted the sysadmin issue. Apparently he knows how to script IRC bots, but doesn't know how to make vBulletin moderator notices get past AOL's spam filters - dang there's a mod at vb.org to do just that. Heck, vBulletin staff may even help them since their such a major business site. Pffff!

I don't have ill will towards WHT, but how they handled the affair was not only nasty (should've seen what was said in the mod emails), but the aftermath of playing dumb and blaming me over their own stupidity, was icing on the cake. I had no reason to configure my mailbox for WHT spam, because I had no intention in getting any.
Chris

First, I feel I need to respond here, since you are accusing me of something that I have no control over.

I do not work for iNet Interactive, I only have root on their IRC box as the dude(Mat Sumpter) who was looking after it didn't have time any more.

So:
I cannot install hacks
These hacks would need to be heavily modified for the WHT Cluster anyways. Which makes using the ones off vB.org useless.

I am no dummy, I can install hacks, I made my own hacks. I even made a warning hack, which was privately released to freewht.com(don't know if they have gotten around to putting it online yet)

Second, it is not our responsibility to look out for your spambox. If stuff gets in there, it is your problem, not ours.

Third, you were most likely banned for "requesting information on a ban" as per our policies... I haven't looked this up, so I don't know, but if you want a answer, why don't you go through the proper channels? WHT has a helpdesk foor a reason. It keeps everyone in the loop(unlike PMs), and it adds some accountability.

If you want to complain about WHT policies and the people that moderate there, do so on your own forum, instead of bringing it into a place like this, where it is not only off topic, but is highly unprofessional. If you want to take a poke at me, do so face to face. My address is readily available on my whois.

Back on topic.
If you are looking for a managed server, go with EV1, and use one of the wonderful companies like rack911, EZSM, rfxn. I have known Steve for awhile, he is a decent guy. He is a walking, talking Linux dictionary.

[Joshs]

Back on topic.
If you are looking for a managed server, go with EV1, and use one of the wonderful companies like rack911, EZSM, rfxn. I have known Steve for awhile, he is a decent guy. He is a walking, talking Linux dictionary.


I recommend against using Steve (Rack911). I do recommend ServerWizards though.

[dwh]

Never heard of Steve. I guess I should look at that URL. Josh, why don't you recommend him?

As an outsider reading this thread it seems like you need a scorecard to know who is who, who likes who, who hates who and why. And you always wonder in the back of your mind if anyone is being paid to make rec's. If anyone knows what's going on behind the scenes, please send me a PM.

[Sheps]

Probably because of either:
a) Communication issues
b) Because he did something nasty to one of his clients(I won't mention what)

Both of these issues have since been resolved. He hired new people to help lighten the load, and I believe he appologized to the one person.

[ChrisLM2001]

[DWH and the rest, excuse this post. Since I have no access to WHT's board, and one of their staff is here, I'll address this here. Sorry Jelsoft, but this is informative to vBulletin members as well, as they need to know about such matters for their own protection. No one needs to go through this!].

First, I feel I need to respond here, since you are accusing me of something that I have no control over.

I do not work for iNet Interactive, I only have root on their IRC box as the dude(Mat Sumpter) who was looking after it didn't have time any more.

So:
I cannot install hacks
These hacks would need to be heavily modified for the WHT Cluster anyways. Which makes using the ones off vB.org useless.

Maybe Sheps next time when you come to other boards making comments about how you can't see how AOL sees moderator messages as spam (which WHT's moderator messages were flagged in AOL, and why I never knew about them during that thread. Since it's spam, there won't be a "new mail" alert), and basically blaming me for WHT's inaction, you'll add a disclaimer that you don't do any code modifications to WHT's forum itself.

If you can tidy up scripts on WHTIRC, I wouldn't have any idea you couldn't do the same at WHT itself. You have the compacity to do so, you're a Community Liasion, you are a system administrator and you code.

Connect the dots.

I am no dummy, I can install hacks, I made my own hacks.

I'm fully aware that you can do that, Sheps, and why when you came to that other board and talked like you were a developer at WHT, it's not hard to believe you actually do mods for WHT.

[...]

Second, it is not our responsibility to look out for your spambox. If stuff gets in there, it is your problem, not ours.

No, the problem is the default messages on forumware are often flagged by AOL as spam. There is a way to get around the spam filters if WHT tries, instead of spending more time denying it can't/won't or blame even former members.

It's WHT's board and if the default messages get blocked by an ISP, it isn't the member's fault (I have zero control of how AOL flags messages as spam, and I'm not opening my mailbox for all mail to get even more). Admins who care that their membership gets important messages, will hunt down such problems and fix them, not make excuses. vBulletin has unofficial tools to do just that, and license holders are free to use them.

Third, you were most likely banned for "requesting information on a ban" as per our policies...

No, I was asking what is the policy of WHT on staff who were banned. It's a legit concern, since if staff can cuss out a member in THAT fashion, and come back, there's a chance it'll happen again. I don't come there to be abused by anyone, especially staff that's out of control.

You guys are getting just plain too paranoid. Just asking about what policy exists on such matters turns into a Us vs. Them deal, and folks are banned. I've been at WHT since 2001 and never received one moderator notice, now if I ask to protect myself from abuse, it's a bannable offense??

Now do you guys see how far you've gone wrong? It was a very bad call. Making excuses for it doesn't help. Adding more abuse, even more so.

Secondly, Sheps, if you don't know why I was banned (this is your second guess) how about getting a clarification, first?

I haven't looked this up, so I don't know, but if you want a answer, why don't you go through the proper channels? WHT has a helpdesk foor a reason. It keeps everyone in the loop(unlike PMs), and it adds some accountability.

I never knew it even had a helpdesk. And after the ugliness of those mod notices, why should I face being verbally abused again? I'm not a 15 year-old boy who has a mouth of a sailor, and I really don't appreciate being spoken to in that ugly tone. If one staff member was already accused (and banned for his behavior), and I get nasty mod notices in the spam box, do you think I'm crazy enough to return for second helpings?

Nothing constructive would've occurred.

If you want to complain about WHT policies and the people that moderate there, do so on your own forum, instead of bringing it into a place like this, where it is not only off topic, but is highly unprofessional.

Yes, Sheps, take your own advice and not come to other boards and do the same.

DWH mentioned he was banned at WHT, and I mentioned that I was too. So, Sheps, there you have the reason to mention it on this thread.

If you want to take a poke at me, do so face to face. My address is readily available on my whois.

You really didn't need to reveal yourself to everyone (I didn't mention you by name). You inserted yourself into this whole affair at the other board and now here, so yes, I do address you face-to-face and publicly not behind your back (like in IRC chatrooms that you do, you know?). Right after one such chat one of the WHT members you spoke to came to that board and polluted it with rather filthy talk, and you came to be smart there too (it's not my board, but one who was also banned from WHT who want's his $100 back).

I address you publicly, since I can't trust you privately. Too much backchannel cowardly exchanges going on.

Back on topic.
If you are looking for a managed server, go with EV1, and use one of the wonderful companies like rack911, EZSM, rfxn. I have known Steve for awhile, he is a decent guy. He is a walking, talking Linux dictionary.

Unfortunately, he also has a thread at WHT of breaking down over an inter-forum fight (hmmm, familiar huh?) and held ransom another board owner's database and more (either he or one of his friends hacked the "enemy's" godaddy account, and transfered it to another's control).

Dang, Sheps, it's best to leave the mess alone for folks can find out things themselves. I have no ill will towards the guy, but to be honest, if I didn't say he's one sysadmin there who did that, I'd be doing folks a disservice. I don't lie or play games, Sheps. Reps are on the line.

It's why I don't trust third-party admins too much, because 2 of them at WHT have done that database ransom before. And you know who the other one is, too (is that the real motive you're involved, Sheps?).

Sorry, Jelsoft and DWH, didn't mean to state this here, but folks reps are on the line, and in this industry reputation means everything. Why that guy above gets a second chance, too.

Chris

[Sheps]

I hope you aren't implying that I ransomed your database... I know 1 other person who has a database they aren't suppose to... and I know why, and how. Honestly, he should have charges brought against him for theft.

I am going to respond in full later. Need a little bit of time to make dinner and suchwhat.

[ChrisLM2001]

Didn't claim such a thing. In fact, you are a very thorough system admin.

I never mentioned you by name until you inserted yourself into the affair (not publicly, not in PMs and not in email). Now it's no choice but to publicly address you by name. Best to have left it alone. You made this into an personal issue, which it never needed to be.

It's personal with you, Sheps, because your rep's on the line as well. But it needed be, if you didn't take personal interest in the matter.

You know about the database issue, don't defer it on any other accusation. And you know what my response to the matter was too -- I didn't like it at all. Personal property isn't to be hijacked, held ransom, deleted or what not because a system administrator feels he has the justification to do so on his whim. That's not their property to trash -- zip, zero, nadda.

Chris

[dwh]

Uh. Holy ****.

I just want a reliable host and sysadmin. (I'm OK w/ the off topic stuff because I'm learning more about some of the players)

Coming back to the hosting question, I am disturbed by one thing about The Planet (though it's very common for this approach to exist in companies big and small). Do they monitor the hosting sections? I'd love to hear an official discuss this and please view it as a constructive criticism not an attack.

When a server is delivered to a client, it should be delivered SECURE. It is not difficult at all to have someone work on a secure install, make an image of it and when a server is set up, the image gets placed automatically on the drive. There isn't really much of any extra work. By making the default installation insecure and charging that free hour to security, they aren't doing anyone favors, themselves included...

The reason it concerns me is that this degrades their own network. An insecure box on the network makes all other machines on that switch and even on the network less secure. It's bad for clients, bad for the network and in the end bad for the company. I'd love to see a company of their size consider delivering secure servers by default. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

[ChrisLM2001]

DWH,

I hope in the future they'll offer such a feature to ensure the server arrives secured. IIRC, they gave a reason at their board why they don't do it (please check).

If it arrives secured, it'll give the owner time to move in and install various IDS or get a sysadmin. Can't do it the other way around, since the owner or sysadmin needs the details that only arrives after your server is online and exposed, to harden the server.

You're correct to be concerned. When I installed the IDS proggies just hours after getting the server, I was shocked by how many worms/trojans/BF bots were floating around the internet looking for something to hijack (being behind your own desktop firewall you won't see them). Within 12hrs, BFD found/shut out a crack attempt as well.

It is a concern, as you're responsible financially for damages a compromise can do.

Chris

[Sheps]

Maybe Sheps next time when you come to other boards making comments about how you can't see how AOL sees moderator messages as spam (which WHT's moderator messages were flagged in AOL, and why I never knew about them during that thread. Since it's spam, there won't be a "new mail" alert), and basically blaming me for WHT's inaction, you'll add a disclaimer that you don't do any code modifications to WHT's forum itself.
I am not responsible for your assumptions. Like I said above, WHT is not going to implement a hack, that would take a few months of testing on WHT's cluster until:
1. vB3 update
2. We get all our other hacks done first. We have a few we are waiting for, which will be done after the vB3 update
3. We get a few more complaints about spam, and it starts to actually affect someone.

No, the problem is the default messages on forumware are often flagged by AOL as spam. There is a way to get around the spam filters if WHT tries, instead of spending more time denying it can't/won't or blame even former members.
It isn't a default message. It is a custom message made by Mat. It isn't flagged in any of my spam software, or any of my freemail's spam software, so I don't know why it was tagged as spam for you.


It's WHT's board and if the default messages get blocked by an ISP, it isn't the member's fault (I have zero control of how AOL flags messages as spam, and I'm not opening my mailbox for all mail to get even more). Admins who care that their membership gets important messages, will hunt down such problems and fix them, not make excuses. vBulletin has unofficial tools to do just that, and license holders are free to use them.
It is your fault though. We can't go into your mailbox and check the "this is not spam" box to let the messages through. We can't whitelist the domain but you can. Whitelist webhostingtalk.com and see what happens.

No, I was asking what is the policy of WHT on staff who were banned. It's a legit concern, since if staff can cuss out a member in THAT fashion, and come back, there's a chance it'll happen again. I don't come there to be abused by anyone, especially staff that's out of control.
He was banned wasn't he. He isn't staff anymore, is he? I think you got your answer.

You guys are getting just plain too paranoid. Just asking about what policy exists on such matters turns into a Us vs. Them deal, and folks are banned. I've been at WHT since 2001 and never received one moderator notice, now if I ask to protect myself from abuse, it's a bannable offense??
No, that was not what you were banned for. If you want to know, I can gladly PM you the answer, or answer it in a ticket for you, if you open up a ticket.

I never knew it even had a helpdesk. And after the ugliness of those mod notices, why should I face being verbally abused again? I'm not a 15 year-old boy who has a mouth of a sailor, and I really don't appreciate being spoken to in that ugly tone. If one staff member was already accused (and banned for his behavior), and I get nasty mod notices in the spam box, do you think I'm crazy enough to return for second helpings?
Ugliness of the mod notices? You mean the "You have got a warning, if you total warnings exceed xx, you will be banned"? Or the "moderator comments"?


Yes, Sheps, take your own advice and not come to other boards and do the same.
You came here first... Just pointing out the obvious. And about your "other board", well, you were complaining about us, I was responding to a complaint. Both were justified.

You really didn't need to reveal yourself to everyone (I didn't mention you by name). You inserted yourself into this whole affair at the other board and now here, so yes, I do address you face-to-face and publicly not behind your back (like in IRC chatrooms that you do, you know?). Right after one such chat one of the WHT members you spoke to came to that board and polluted it with rather filthy talk, and you came to be smart there too (it's not my board, but one who was also banned from WHT who want's his $100 back).
You want me to send me the contents of that chat? Also, you didn't refer to me by name here, but you did make references to your forum. So, if users knew where to look, they could draw their own conclusion. Or if they simply went into WHTIRC, they could figure it out really quickly.

YUnfortunately, he also has a thread at WHT of breaking down over an inter-forum fight (hmmm, familiar huh?) and held ransom another board owner's database and more (either he or one of his friends hacked the "enemy's" godaddy account, and transfered it to another's control).
That is in the past. People make mistakes, I am sure you never made a mistake, right?

YIt's why I don't trust third-party admins too much, because 2 of them at WHT have done that database ransom before. And you know who the other one is, too (is that the real motive you're involved, Sheps?).
So, who was the other one?

This will be my last response here. If you want to talk to me, about me, or anything else, either open a helpdesk ticket, or IM me.

[Joshs]

Probably because of either:
a) Communication issues
b) Because he did something nasty to one of his clients(I won't mention what)

Both of these issues have since been resolved. He hired new people to help lighten the load, and I believe he appologized to the one person.

Yes both a and b. The comminications issues were definitely not resolved after he hired people because myself and others had issues with Rack911 after that.

[Joshs]

Uh. Holy ****.

I just want a reliable host and sysadmin. (I'm OK w/ the off topic stuff because I'm learning more about some of the players)

Coming back to the hosting question, I am disturbed by one thing about The Planet (though it's very common for this approach to exist in companies big and small). Do they monitor the hosting sections? I'd love to hear an official discuss this and please view it as a constructive criticism not an attack.

When a server is delivered to a client, it should be delivered SECURE. It is not difficult at all to have someone work on a secure install, make an image of it and when a server is set up, the image gets placed automatically on the drive. There isn't really much of any extra work. By making the default installation insecure and charging that free hour to security, they aren't doing anyone favors, themselves included...

The reason it concerns me is that this degrades their own network. An insecure box on the network makes all other machines on that switch and even on the network less secure. It's bad for clients, bad for the network and in the end bad for the company. I'd love to see a company of their size consider delivering secure servers by default. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

There is a big difference between managed and unmanaged hosting providers. In my opinion (and most others) it makes sense to get an unmanaged box and then find a third-party to handle securing it and maintaining it, etc. Its all about specialization. The Planet specializes in the delivery of servers, data center space for co-location, and a pristine network. It wouldn't make sense for them to take on something they don't specialize in which is in a different field. Security is a large part of the tech industry. You wouldn't go to your regular doctor and have him perform a root canal on you, right?

Anyways, The Planet's network is top-notch and they have implemented a wide array of network layer security. You don't need to worry about others on their network having any effect on your own connection. Machines have their own VLANs and there are IPS/IDS/Mitigation systems in place. Don't forget about the redundancy (The Planet's core, distribution, and aggregation routers / switches are arranged in a full mesh network topology).

[Zachery]

Uh. Holy ****.

I just want a reliable host and sysadmin. (I'm OK w/ the off topic stuff because I'm learning more about some of the players)

Coming back to the hosting question, I am disturbed by one thing about The Planet (though it's very common for this approach to exist in companies big and small). Do they monitor the hosting sections? I'd love to hear an official discuss this and please view it as a constructive criticism not an attack.

When a server is delivered to a client, it should be delivered SECURE. It is not difficult at all to have someone work on a secure install, make an image of it and when a server is set up, the image gets placed automatically on the drive. There isn't really much of any extra work. By making the default installation insecure and charging that free hour to security, they aren't doing anyone favors, themselves included...

The reason it concerns me is that this degrades their own network. An insecure box on the network makes all other machines on that switch and even on the network less secure. It's bad for clients, bad for the network and in the end bad for the company. I'd love to see a company of their size consider delivering secure servers by default. Anyone else have thoughts on this?
While it would be nice, there are alot of people who want thier own programs to be used to secure it. Example being I like using APF for my firewall, but the planet likes using snort (is that its name?) or some other firewall program that is highly complicated, ect.

I'd rather sit down and install my own programs for securing a server.

[dwh]

Good point Zachery.

Well well, I was about ready to sign up with The Planet and supplant it with Server Wizards. So I search for SW and found this:

http://www.magi.net.au/index.php?itemid=30

and this

http://magi.net.au/index.php?itemid=39

which I suppose is related to the bad blood evident in this thread. It does not engender confidence. I wish I had the time to do it myself. Is there any reason I shouldn't be concerned by this?

Oh, another thing. I'd feel better if I saw these companies specialize a bit more rather than doing everything under the sun and saying they never sleep and do magic. In business, no one does magic or gives more than is profitable. They have so many OSes on their site. The more they grow the more sysadmins they have to hire and train. What a nightmare to train them all to handle Slackware Linux, SUN, freebsd, redhat, mandrakesoft, openbsd, debian, centoo, netbsd, fedora, centos and SUSE PLUS cpanel, ensim, plesk directadmin and hsphere 24/7. How well can they possibly do all this?

[Zachery]

Well if its true thats not so great. I mean I can sit down on your server and install BFD and APF and turn off dev mode and logout. All you get now is port 22(ssh) on your machine.

You need someone to tune your server for your needs.

Alot of the day to day mangment of a server can be accompined by some sort of control panel. Its a lazy persons godsend. I can recompile php, and apache, update software, with a click of a button, and it requires little real technial knowleged. Now securing the server does. But that can be done once in a while, and have a secure audit preformed.

You login to WHM check your harddrives, check your root email, make sure theres nothing nasty where it should be and move on. (that is somewhat simplified).

If you need a fulltime good sysadmin you are going to pay for it. But I think that has been discussed.

[Joshs]

Good point Zachery.

Well well, I was about ready to sign up with The Planet and supplant it with Server Wizards. So I search for SW and found this:

http://www.magi.net.au/index.php?itemid=30

and this

http://magi.net.au/index.php?itemid=39

which I suppose is related to the bad blood evident in this thread. It does not engender confidence. I wish I had the time to do it myself. Is there any reason I shouldn't be concerned by this?

First link: They do a number of things under their advanced security plan. Snort and ACID are two of the things. You don't have to have them install them. There should be no problem with the size of the log files as logrotate will take care of that. We have Snort running on our servers in a live environment and don't have any issues with it.

As for the second link: once again, I will reiterate what has been already said in this thread, your configurations depend on what you want setup. Tell ServerWizards that you want them to optimally configure snort and I am sure that they will.

Just as a note: I DO NOT recommend touching Rack911 with a 10 foot pole. There are a lot of other third-party admins out there that you can choose from if you decide against ServerWizards.

[dwh]

Yeah, I wasn't too thrilled with some of what I read about them at all.

OTOH I just read a 4 page thread w/ good reviews of SW. Sigh. I just want to pay someone to manage the darn thing, manage it well and give me time to do real work. If Zachery had more time to devote to this I'd just hire him.

SW does sound appealing because they have a ticket system, 24/7 support and a whole system in place to handle these things. I just don't know what to think anymore. Eyes are glazing from all this research. It's overwhelming and confusing.

[dwh]

Ah what the heck. I'm going to stop driving myself crazy. If they don't work out I'll just switch at some point. I'll give em a shot. How do I email them? Support@Server(nospam)Wizards.com ?

[ChrisLM2001]

Good point Zachery.

Well well, I was about ready to sign up with The Planet and supplant it with Server Wizards. So I search for SW and found this:

http://www.magi.net.au/index.php?itemid=30

and this

http://magi.net.au/index.php?itemid=39

That could be because of a script not doing it's job. Noticed sometimes you'll have to go back behind system administrators and point out services are down or non existent. Recently it was if Turck or eAccelerator were installed, even though it was requested.

I don't like it, but I'm also not service proficient enough to do it all myself (some I can install now well [school-of-hard-knocks experience], but configuring some IDS takes more than just copying and pasting someone else's examples).

which I suppose is related to the bad blood evident in this thread. It does not engender confidence. I wish I had the time to do it myself. Is there any reason I shouldn't be concerned by this?

For the above, if it was an installation error, it's not that critical if caught early (just make it a habit to double check new installations). Remember they do the work remotely [ssh, for example], so they may not see everything that's wrong in your front-end client [like WHM/Cpanel].

Oh, another thing. I'd feel better if I saw these companies specialize a bit more rather than doing everything under the sun and saying they never sleep and do magic.

Yes. One of the concerns is if they do webhosting and you do webhosting. People are concerned that such system administrators won't do as much to help if it cuts into their own pocket -- why the dischord if the sysadmins also webhost.

In business, no one does magic or gives more than is profitable. They have so many OSes on their site. The more they grow the more sysadmins they have to hire and train. What a nightmare to train them all to handle Slackware Linux, SUN, freebsd, redhat, mandrakesoft, openbsd, debian, centoo, netbsd, fedora, centos and SUSE PLUS cpanel, ensim, plesk directadmin and hsphere 24/7. How well can they possibly do all this?

Installation scripts and outsourcing is how it's done. ;)

Be nice to have your dedicated system administrator on call 24/7 specially for your site, but most people online have sysadmins who also manage 400+ clients at a time, and they're manning the helpdesk and doing repairs remotely.

Getting to the point I may just switch to Windows 2003 Server, because then family can help on system administration (all are MS network engineers with decades of experience), and there's no sysadmin problems there. Would like to stay with *nix to learn it, but if system administration is piecemeal and I have to go back and open 10 tickets for a service so it's corrected, it's time to move on.

Chris

[dwh]

You know, I didn't even consider using Windows. After being a consultant for awhile and becoming more technical, I went from being a microsoft fan to being an Anti-MS snob. I do love *nix, but damn, I know windows pretty well. It is a lot easier....

Naaah...

[ChrisLM2001]

I am not responsible for your assumptions. Like I said above, WHT is not going to implement a hack, that would take a few months of testing on WHT's cluster until:
1. vB3 update
2. We get all our other hacks done first. We have a few we are waiting for, which will be done after the vB3 update
3. We get a few more complaints about spam, and it starts to actually affect someone.

Who's that someone, a moderator? Cause apparently you guys don't wish to acknowledge that the moderator messages are tagged as spam on AOL at medium spam settings.

It isn't a default message. It is a custom message made by Mat. It isn't flagged in any of my spam software, or any of my freemail's spam software, so I don't know why it was tagged as spam for you.

Ever heard that other members have other ISPs and they don't have zero control how they flag spam? This isn't getting mail on your server, you know?

Are you saying WHT members have to open their mailboxes to ALL spam mail to receive admin/mod messages? Because if it's not worked out that way, that's how they'll notice on some ISPs/OLPs.

It is your fault though. We can't go into your mailbox and check the "this is not spam" box to let the messages through. We can't whitelist the domain but you can. Whitelist webhostingtalk.com and see what happens.

No, Sheps, it's not my fault. I have zero control how AOL flags junk mail -- and I'm not opening my mailbox to every spam known. No board administration in their right mind would require it.

He was banned wasn't he. He isn't staff anymore, is he? I think you got your answer.

The answer wasn't answered: what IS the policy for staff members who are banned? Can they return as staff again?

No one bothered to answer those questions, just be coy, and I get 31 demerits for asking. All this other junk occurred, but those basic questions weren't answered. And still not.

No, that was not what you were banned for. If you want to know, I can gladly PM you the answer, or answer it in a ticket for you, if you open up a ticket.

Why return for more abuse? Look here and at the other site, Sheps. I'm not posting the link to that other site right now (too much foul language), but it's not good PR about iNet nor WHT, especially how foul mouthed the exchanges were with management. Using the "F" word (cussing a client out) is not very constructive commentary from a company to clients. I'm not going to open a ticket to be remotely polluted with such language.

iNet and WHT needs it's staff reined in and start acting like a company.

Ugliness of the mod notices? You mean the "You have got a warning, if you total warnings exceed xx, you will be banned"? Or the "moderator comments"?

The latter. It wasn't professional.

WHT isn't a fan site, Sheps, business folks go there for contacts and business. Management has to conduct themselves using business language. Not act like it's a clan base.

You came here first... Just pointing out the obvious. And about your "other board", well, you were complaining about us, I was responding to a complaint. Both were justified.

I came here first (been here since May, 2003, Sheps)? And "my board"? That board isn't mine (I don't host it and it isn't my forumware), but it is a board by another banned WHT member who wants a refund for $100 for being a premium WHT member after what he experienced.

Too many direct accusations, too much foul language, and too much non-professional interactions between iNet/WHT staff and clients/members. It's documented at that site, Sheps, so there's no denying it's existence -- iNet and WHT don't dispute the contents.

You're doing more damage bringing it up, Sheps, again. Now you spark interest of "what are they talking about?".

You want me to send me the contents of that chat? Also, you didn't refer to me by name here, but you did make references to your forum. So, if users knew where to look, they could draw their own conclusion. Or if they simply went into WHTIRC, they could figure it out really quickly.

I'm not the administrator (just a mod), but your friend is an administrator there, though. Good enough?

Do I care about that chat? No. I do care as a moderator at that forum that after a chat between you and the other person, the other person was foul mouthed to more than that site's administrator (even dragging his financee into it all and calling her names), then you show up with an Abbott and Costello routine.

Is that professional behavior, Sheps? No. Did you state to that member that when he and you "chatted" it had nothing to do with his conduct? No, disclaimers. You knew what he did (as you were on that site, and there's only 2 active threads and a handy last 10 post review link), but said nothing.

That is in the past. People make mistakes, I am sure you never made a mistake, right?

Never claimed I did. But I do claim that if you make accusations either back them up, or don't say them at all. I don't trash individuals (people have to make a living), but if they insert themselves into matters and try to trash me in the process, they'll get the truth known. We all rely on our reputations to do business, so if you feel slighted you can handle the matter privately first -- to clarify and not jump off a cliff.

So, who was the other one?

You know, I know. I won't tell if you won't tell. But if you want it all out, remember what Steve went through.

This will be my last response here. If you want to talk to me, about me, or anything else, either open a helpdesk ticket, or IM me.

No, Sheps, all my contact with you is now in public only, because you didn't have the decency to do so in private first (you have my IM nick, and there's a PM service at the other board as well). After the episode on the other forum, even more so.

Chris

[ChrisLM2001]

Windows 2003 Server is nothing like NT 4.0. or 2000. It's locked down from the beginning, and you'll have to open things up. Best thing, what's on your XP desktop can work on the server as well (and the common .zip format as well). If you know your way around Windows, you already know the GUI, so that learning curve isn't there. With *nix, you'll have to learn all the command line syntax, and learning a different way to install things (not everything is a RPM). Where in Windows, it's click and configure. Admin time is much less.

At TP/SM you can get it installed at signup, or pay just $25 to get your server reformatted. And since it's already locked down out of the box, you don't have to worry about the OS being wide open for exploits -- which gives someone time to get the IDS setup up and running themselves (a zillion how-tos online). ;) Install PHP and Mysql, and vBulletin will operate on it as on a *nix box as well.

Chris

[Steve Machol]

I think it's time this disaggreement moves to a more private channel or another venue. :)